Yu.Lutsenko: "If any banker doesn't sit down, violations in this sphere can long proceed"

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Staff of the Ministry of Internal Affairs interrogated the first deputy chairman of National bank Anatoly Shapovalov and in the future intend to receive indications of other senior representatives of NBU. The Interior Minister YURY LUTSENKO told about it in interview to correspondents of Kommersant VALERY KUCHERUK and VALERY KALNYSH. According to the minister, in actions of militia there is no political implication and before publicly declaring initiation of criminal cases on the fraud facts when refinancing banks, it informed the president Victor Yushchenko, however the head of state didn't react in any way to this information.

- On September 10 you reported that the Ministry of Internal Affairs causes on interrogation of the first deputy head of National Bank Anatoly Shapovalov. It already was for evidence?

- Yes. Citizen Shapovalov Anatoly Vasilyevich yesterday (on September 14. - Ъ) I gave the first evidences in the presence of the lawyer and will be on interrogation on Thursday. And today (on September 15. - Ъ) on interrogation also there was a citizen Galyant Olga Aleksandrovna - the deputy head of department of NBU across Kiev and Kiev region. The circle of people who will be called by the investigator, is planned to expand. I think that practically all officials and the National Bank management, whose functional duties enter supervision and control of activity of commercial banks, and also the persons involved in preparation of decisions on refinancing of banks, will be interrogated within several criminal cases which are conducted by the Head investigative department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. And conducts long ago.

- If it is possible, is more detailed about these affairs. It affairs upon? What is investigated, what abuses are revealed?

- Many why - that regarded my performance (about a call on interrogation. - Ъ) as unexpected also spoke: "If there are questions, bring criminal case". Still at the end of last year I declared opaque processes which accompany decisions on refinancing of banks. And in the middle of this year criminal cases on separate commercial banks which were plundered by the previous owners with use of the nonexistent or forged documents on pledge were opened.

- To an exit to the press you addressed directly to the president Victor Yushchenko, reported to him about the revealed violations?

- I addressed to the president with the letter in which told about occurring orgy in banks, - any reaction. And after that I had two options: or I am silent further, continuing to get for months the necessary documents, or I turn on the light and publicly I declare the barefaced plunder of a banking system of the country revealed by a consequence. From my point of view to be silent would mean to indulge marauders. Therefore I chose the second option. Why the president nervously reacts to my statements? It seems to me, he is perfectly informed that occurs in these banks, in NBU, but, obviously, it accepts such tendency from the point of view of political interests. Or here one of leaders "The front змин" Andrey Pyshny declares: "Let either puts, or is silent". Whether to it not to know, what the decision on arrest is made by prosecutor's office, and business of the Ministry of Internal Affairs - to collect the corresponding materials?

- However information on actions of the Ministry of Internal Affairs concerning banks was heard now, absolutely shortly before the beginning of presidential election campaign...

- Some openly declare: Lutsenko doesn't have anything, he carries out the political order. Then I ask: why the Audit Chamber in May wrote (the Interior Minister starts quoting the document of Audit Chamber. - Ъ) : "Activities of National bank for ensuring stability of a banking system by refinancing of banks under programs of financial improvement were accompanied by adoption of unauthorized and unreasonable decisions". Further - it is more: "By board of National bank at making decisions on granting the credits on refinancing of banks were systemically broken procedure and requirements of own standards... " Similar abuses are recorded and in materials of the parliamentary commission, and even in materials of the Kiev management of National Bank in which it is said that pledges provided to one of banks don't conform to any standard requirement of NBU.

- At what refinancing of banks of the Ministry of Internal Affairs established violation of the law?

- There are nuances... I am inclined to hold back names of banks, after all in some owners were replaced, new managing directors, and, obviously are appointed, negative advertizing isn't necessary to them. Therefore, speaking about bank, I will use the first letter of its name. On such conditions I am ready to tell about typical examples of offenses in this sphere.

That's settled.

- From my point of view, in our banking system there are three interconnected processes which can be qualified as the largest in the history of independent Ukraine financial frauds. It is article, the person under investigation of the Ministry of Internal Affairs therefore criminal cases upon financial fraud are brought. The first process - plunder of banking institutions by owners or the management of commercial banks. The second - abuses of NBU during preparation of decisions on refinancing of commercial banks. And the third - the opaque currency auctions leading to speculative operations and falling of hryvnia which still should give to a consequence a legal assessment. We accurately recorded the first process, the second is now studied at interrogations of the management of National Bank, and the third still ahead. Unfortunately, at investigation law enforcement agencies face categorical unwillingness the president Victor Yushchenko as person to whom the National Bank management submits, to render the managements of NBU though any help. On any our inquiries we receive the only answer: "It is bank secret". Throughout a long time to us refuse flatly to provide information on dates, circumstances and results of currency auctions which are spent by NBU.

- Give one after another. You told that the Ministry of Internal Affairs recorded the facts of plunder of banks.

- Yes. The bank management, we will call it "Р", gives out the credit for the sum of 1,75 billion UAH on the security of the one and only land plot of 113 hectares on the suburb of Kiev region which regularly is a pledge subject at 16 different borrowers. Then the management of this bank allows to bring this land plot out of the pledge and to give to mortgage pledge to other commercial bank in which, obviously, the same scheme was conceived. Then refinancing process begins - and the legendary land plot increased by 16 contracts of a mortgage, becomes pledge for receiving 2 billion more UAH which are allocated by National Bank. It is asked: where there were officials of NBU, authorized to exercise supervision and control of banks? Then that all these processes for them were absolutely transparent. Can't be that someone didn't see that in one of the largest banks of the country the same land plot of 16 times was a pledge subject.And who from National Bank will be responsible for what the same legendary site became pledge for 2 billion UAH of financing?

- It is the only case when the fact of fraud of bank with the earth is recorded?

- There is even more amazing example - with bank "E". It also has in mortgage pledge the land plot of 20 hectares in the Obukhovsky region of Kiev region, in the territory of the Starobezradichsky Village Council - the known district in Ukraine (in the village New Bezradichi the house of the president Victor Yushchenko is located. - Ъ). Under it hundreds millions credit also were received. And here I have information of the State Committee on land resources: this site doesn't exist! And again question: why the National Bank management which then to it which has been already plundered, to bank gave out 500 million UAH of refinancing, didn't find time to check pledge already under the credits? According to operational data, these means were right there transferred to accounts of fictitious firms - a something ephemeral and cashed.

There are some more examples. The bank "D" in general gave out the credits without pledge. Well, as in the Middle Ages - on the basis of personal acquaintance and trust, in the spirit of mutual assistance and neighborliness. Or there is a bank "H" where as pledge the corporate rights of two open companies for the sum of 40 thousand UAH served. Under it they obtained the credits for the sum about 500 million UAH. These proceedings were initiated about two months ago.

- Considering, what NBU refuses to you providing information, about what you told is how reliable?

- The new management of these banks cooperates with us, actually, from them we and learn it. The National Bank never promoted us in opening of a veil of bank secret, even in such egregious examples. Now we established the persons responsible for financial frauds in the former management of commercial banks, and we carry out the investigative actions assuming carrying out a huge number of examinations. And it is work at least for half a year. We now are at a stage of establishment of the one who promoted commission of these crimes by the inaction, non-performance of the direct functions. It, obviously, officials of National bank. In case of their establishment, certainly, business can be qualified under article about malfeasances - and materials for initiation of criminal cases will be sent to bodies of prosecutor's office.

- These "officials of National Bank" acted in own interests or, let us assume, in interests any financially - industrial groups, the leaders of the state - they in itself so arrived or executed someone's will?

- The consequence will be engaged in studying of this question. The first interrogations which began this week, are urged to establish the circle of people, the official duties responsible for non-performance, their methods, and also a circle of other persons involved in criminal schemes. As you know, that act which brings personal benefit is called as a crime only. Other actions don't get to category penal. Therefore in this case for us it is important to find out who, as well as with what benefit for itself(himself) or, probably, other persons committed malfeasances.

- Anatoly Shapovalov told something new in this way?

- I am not authorized to transfer you Shapovalov's word. Besides, I am not inclined to advertize further those persons who will be called for evidence. In this case there should be no agiotage. As you paid attention, we declared oh, to put it mildly, a disorder in commercial banks and after that carried out a number of actions by means of which schemes and participation of persons in financial frauds in commercial banks are established. Now the same is done by investigators of the Ministry of Internal Affairs concerning officials of National bank. In case we establish and we will collect the materials testifying to possible structure of malfeasances, materials will be transferred to prosecutor's office for initiation of affairs on officials.

- You mentioned currency auctions...

- It is the most closed part of process of financial frauds. Despite our numerous inquiries, we never received information on, when and as passed currency auctions. As far as I know, though I can't warrant for reliability of these data, only five persons in the state know this information. Many bankers on the condition of anonymity say to me that these auctions are carried out with rough violation of the rules. That is the bulk of currency is received not by bidders, and the banks defined by someone which receive huge currency resources at the end of auction work. And then, without having any currency obligations to foreign partners, resell literally during the night these resources with a price markup in one hryvnia. The question for whom it is necessary and why it occurs, isn't in right area.Obviously, it is more political question. I am afraid to seem the skeptic, but it seems to me what exactly at this third stage law enforcement agencies hardly will be able to ascertain someone's guilt. It is very similar to a surgery: well who will be able to establish, whether the surgeon at this or that moment of operation correctly acted? Whether correctly it turned a scalpel and applied this or that clip? In the same way and in National Bank: to estimate correctness of volumes of the currency exposed at auctions from the point of view of the Criminal code, hardly it will be possible. From my point of view, politicians, and specifically president which the only is authorized to appoint and oust the National Bank management have to give an assessment. Therefore if bankers don't give accurate evidences on frauds when carrying out currency auctions, hardly we will be able to prove something.

- And they are ready to give such evidences?

- Ask any banker this question. I think, the answer is obvious. Any bank today extremely we depend on NBU management. It is enough to look at the refinancing list - and we will understand that practically all banking system of the country depends on the subjective decision which can or prolong to someone life, or stop bank existence.

- Bankers will sit down or everything will end as always - with anything?

- You understand, the order begins with responsibility. If any banker doesn't sit down, violations in this sphere can long proceed. I consider that have to sit down, proofs suffice. As for officials of National Bank, now I can't approve it. And nevertheless I am sure that we will contact officials, whose functional duties included control of actions of commercial banks and of procedure of preparation of documents when refinancing. Other question that a lot of time for this purpose is necessary. And degree of responsibility will be established by prosecutor's office.

- If, for example, at presidential election Victor Yanukovych what will be with all these affairs wins?

- I won't answer this question because I was fond of a fantasy only in the childhood. Now I am sure that we will be able to continue this work and for four months which have remained to elections, and after them in the same structure. Besides, today the prime minister - the minister declared that change of the management of National Bank becomes one of her first decisions after a victory on elections. If it comes true, that, naturally, it becomes much easier to establish truth. Small analogy:after the state entered management of bank "P", its management promotes us in delivery of a huge number of documents. Similar situation with bank "H".

- You repeatedly spoke in support of Yulia Timoshenko and is negative, even is offensive, responded about other candidates - in particular, about Arseniy Yatsenyuk...

- Never I spoke about Yatsenyuk negatively.

- And the phrase "rabbits long don't live"?

- So it you, journalists, carry out associations. Thus I didn't mention mister Yatsenyuk.

- And at all had no it in a look?

- Well you never know who and what means? I was in Lviv, people asked a question of agriculture, I and say to them that such trouble, people: "Rabbits breed quickly, but long don't live". Why thus all channels thought of Yatsenyuk? Well, probably, found something similar. But if it is serious, I am really convinced that today the question costs so: either Tymoshenko, or Yanukovych. At all my respect for other participants of campaign - to the same Yatsenyuk, Tigipko, Gritsenko and another - they will carry out not the main task, they don't become presidents. The question consists in a choice of strategy of development of Ukraine. That which is professed by mister Yanukovych, is unacceptable for me. I consider that its victory will be not accident, but a grief for Ukraine. But this my personal opinion as policy - as well as in 2006, the militia out of policy also will fulfill only the office duty.

- How in that case to regard an action of the Crimean "Golden eagle" which fighters the other day presented a jacket and brooms to the mayor of Simferopol Gennady Babenko?

- Yes, this situation... "Golden eagle" can't participate in any political actions. Even if fighters have sincere feelings to mister Babenko, it is inadmissible. I communicated about it with Gennady Moskal (the chief of the Department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea (ARC).- Ъ) and today, by the way, I received an assignment of the corresponding tonality from the president... Similar actions won't repeat any more.

- Explain why a subject of special attention Crimean the Departments of the Ministry of Internal Affairs became representatives of Party of Regions, for example the deputy of the Supreme Council of ARC Alexander Melnik?

- And that you will do, there it is few of others! But, as far as I can judge, in sight of militia in the Crimea - not only representatives of Party of Regions.And as for Alexander Melnik, words of the Russian about it is an honest announcement of that we know: the citizen Melnik is involved in organized crime on the Crimean peninsula. In 2006 when we collected all necessary proofs on group of the Miller on crimes of the middle 1990-x years, dug out corpses, carried out expertizes etc., we delivered all of them to Kiev, and one of deputy public prosecutors within 48 hours didn't find opportunity to sign the petition in court about Melnik's arrest. As a result mister Melnik left from militia "бусика" and on foot went to Borispol, and from there went to Moscow. After that the starting signal went for Lutsenko's removal from a post of the head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. When I returned to a position of the minister, it appeared that all his accomplices are condemned, and his business is removed in separate production and closed from - for absence of structure of a crime. Now to Gennady Gennadiyevich (to the Russian. - Ъ) it was largely lucky: in - the first, at us still is which - what фактаж, and in - the second as you know, the other day in Spain the suspect of murder of the first deputy chairman of the board of ministers of ARC Alexander Safontsev was detained. Who stands behind the order of this murder, we also know. Mister Melnik too knows it. Therefore I will repeat: performances of the Russian are honest announcements of intentions to prove that the law one for all.

- It doesn't seem to you, what so frank support of Yulia Timoshenko by you can do much harm to your personal project "National Self-defense"?

I don't think so. I will repeat: on these elections the issue of future election in parliament, and what we will choose from scenarios of development of Ukraine - European or post-colonial is resolved not. In this regard I frankly and accurately position the prospect and "National self-defense" with Tymoshenko's figure. I don't see any ideal politician, but nevertheless in a complex I support the one who will be able to stop Yanukovych. The National Self-defense project at Tymoshenko and at Yanukovych - two different essence. In the first case it is the creating force, in the second - resistance organization. Me, of course, not war, and creation interests more. Well, there will be no I in parliament, so a horse-radish with it, My God!

- Whether you expect soon Alexey Pukacha's any fatal statements?

- As far as I know, in materials of the State Office of Public Prosecutor it is spoken what exactly in this office in 2000 was the report on the committed murder.And so, in 2005 in this office, directly on it here a carpet all three who are now condemned for partnership in murder appeared. The fact of their detention and further indications became base for Pukachu's charge. I absolutely know nothing that tells Pukach. I didn't try to speak about it neither with the public prosecutor, nor with his deputy on a consequence.

- The Interior Minister Yury Kravchenko, the first deputy minister Nikolay Dzhiga, and also his direct head - the chief of the criminal block of the Ministry of Internal Affairs general Vladimir Melnikov had the right to sign to Alexey Pukachu a task for carrying out expeditious actions. The Ministry of Internal Affairs carried out any investigative actions concerning the last two people in this list?

- If in 2005 we found at least one document, it would be already known long ago. But all burned. In the Ministry of Internal Affairs remained nothing.

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