From the moment of reforming of the Ukrainian intelligence service passed nearly 18 years (The law of Ukraine "" was adopted about Security service of Ukraine at the time of her first head Evgeny Marchuk on March 25, 1992). During this time the SBU endured different processes: change of heads, rotation of shots, reformatting of structural divisions, staff reduction. Certainly, there were also Kuchma's times, the Maidan. But what the Security service of Ukraine is today? About known resonant affairs, personnel policy, criminal case upon the Holodomor of 1932-1933, possibility of lustration - in exclusive interview to the newspaper "Day" of the head of Security service of Ukraine of Valentyn Nalyvaichenko:
- Today all candidates for president declare the future determination in fight against corruption. It was declared repeatedly also by the incumbent president of Ukraine Victor Yushchenko. Even in the spring of 2005 he reported that made the decision on NBR creation. And a few days ago the President gave a devastating assessment to work of all law enforcement agencies on fight against corruption. It was seen and heard by all Ukraine. You as the head of SBU took part in this meeting. There is a question: can, in Ukraine the wrong system of fight against this evil is created in general. It is a shame to listen and read how Ukraine steadily comes nearer to number of the most corrupted countries of the world. How you see this problem? As who needs to do?
- I consider, whatever candidates were and what they nor spoke, they need to recognize the following: fight against corruption has to begin with that it is necessary to cut down and put considerably under control the majority of functions of officials. In other words, any licensing, providing the reference, permission have to be: a) are most simplified; b) are transparent; c) are impersonal. Acceptance or decision rejection shouldn't depend on the official, it has to depend on payment of duty, providing accurately certain documents, transparent control of collecting taxes, etc.
About truthfulness of candidates has to tell recognition by them of need of considerable reduction of bureaucratic establishments and their functions. Simple example:two days ago we caught on a bribe of the head of the Ukrainian state seed inspection. It appears, there is such executive body, which head anything else except collecting of bribes wasn't engaged. It laid over each head of regional inspection by bribes at the rate to 3 thousand euros a month. And now there is a question - from where took money regional heads of this inspection? Here to you evident corruption pyramid. When we took this bribe taker, the system of bribes simply struck. And all from - that there is such official who directs seeds in Ukraine, moreover, the state also finances it. This the first.
The second. Certainly, it is necessary to create uniform body on fight against corruption. Here personally I have no doubts. Why such body still isn't created? The question remains open. At the same time, I wouldn't exaggerate possibility of law-enforcement system in fight against corruption.
The third. Why, all - statistically Ukraine takes the last places on corruption level? Yes because only concerning judges of different levels this year we brought 80 criminal cases. From them six - concerning heads of local and district courts. What else state can "brag" of such progress? It is worth remembering at least Zvarich who, by the way, sits in a pre-trial detention center. In any European country it is inadmissible that the head of regional (regional) court took on a bribe. One more criminal case is opened on the head Ivano - Frankovsky regional administrative court.
But corruption system we got which from the Soviet Union, it is necessary to destroy not only from above, but also the bottom, that is to work on all vertical. Certainly, for this law-enforcement sector it isn't enough therefore the question demands the decision first of all at legislative level. It is very good that since January 1 come into force of change in the legislation on fight against corruption strengthening. For example, if concerning the official the protocol on corruption is made, it won't be able to hold the position any more. It is correct, but, at the same time, I consider that judges who accepted one, and then the second illegal decision, through the Supreme council of justice or other mechanism which will be defined by the legislator, too it is necessary to oust. Besides, it is necessary to transfer administrative corruption to the plane of criminal prosecution.
To whom to do it? Through elections it is necessary to support those political forces which offer a concrete way of an exit from this situation, instead of general phrases. If someone speaks about the strong state, that is increase in army of officials, it is already incorrect way.
As for Security service, we consider that functions which are carried out by our Head department on fight against corruption, together with equipment and the room need to be transferred to uniform anti-corruption body. There also have to enter the powerful device on fight against corruption of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the investigative office of the Prosecutor General's Office. To the last подследственны all corruption crimes of officials from first to the third category. Certainly, the uniform body can't become panacea, but it will help to centralize and coordinate fight against corruption.
- How you estimate actions of the minister Yury Lutsenko during meeting at the President?
- Sometimes happens so that I too want to rise and tell: "Oh it also bothered all! ". But if you are the head of law enforcement agency, it is pleasant to you or not, you have to recognize one: for the sake of interests of citizens, protection of the law, coordination of activity of law enforcement agencies you have to go on meetings to the President and listen to that he hears from people. After all we elected the head of state by the majority therefore he has the right for all estimates which sound from its party. Such meetings are opportunity to report on the President on existing problems or if in it there is a requirement, to ask about the help - a legislative initiative. The only figure which is capable to strengthen coordination between the Ministry of Internal Affairs, GPU, SBU, is a President of Ukraine. Therefore my assessment of actions of the Minister of Internal Affairs - is negative.
- Now there are serious conversations on that to withdraw function of fight against organized crime from the law of Ukraine on SBU. Whether it will be premature? After all it will weaken all state system of fight against this evil.
- No, won't be. Function of fight against organized crime needs to be taken away from SBU for the subsequent reforming of our structure. But the professional answer consists in the following: The security service as intelligence service has to help the Ministry of Internal Affairs equipment, an agency and other positions as it becomes in the European countries. Example: two days ago we detained an organized criminal group which tried to realize radioactive material - Caesium 137.We developed this operation and realized - the special forces "Alpha" left on detention Kiev. To the bandits, whatever cool they considered themselves, it wasn't succeeded to earn 15 million dollars. But competence of this criminal case will belong to the Ministry of Internal Affairs. That is, the intelligence service and militia divisions have to work with modification of the Law and. For us - development of the most dangerous affairs, in the Ministry of Internal Affairs - law-enforcement function.
- Whether remains to demilitarization of SBU actual today a problem? After demilitarization in SBU there will be labor unions and the eight-hour working day? What main arguments today for demilitarization?
- Somewhat this problem remains actual. But today all of us more try to attract to us for work of civil servants. Therefore a half of SBU board are already civil servants, as for positions in service, 30-35%. Besides, the President already defined double tariffing of positions, that is people who are appointed or reach on service high positions, can be both civil servants, and the military personnel. Now on turn the new law on SBU where already under the law final demilitarization has to take place. The exception will be made by divisions: on the fight against terrorism, the separate counterprospecting, some guarding.
Demilitarization essence in to waving the weapon, and to be lawyers, to own computers, to be able to document an offense then to bring the matters into court, etc. It also disposal of the functions connected with detention or deduction of citizens. As for labor unions, we have them, and we already enjoy cooperation with them. And the eight-hour working day depends on that, there will be we body of a special purpose or law-enforcement structure. The first option just also assumes tariffing of the working day with surcharges for additional business hours.
- If it is change to the current law about SBU, whether that you expect to receive 226 votes in the Verkhovna Rada, especially before the termination of election of the president of Ukraine?
- Terms and realization depend on a position of deputies, and here I don't see any problems. The majority of legislators, in any case profile committees, support this offer.
- If the SBU remains mainly counterprospecting body, whether that will weaken a SBU role in protection of the state and especially societies, after all from organized crime and bribery most of all suffer how we speak, simple people?
- The security service in quantitative measurement totals today 29 thousand employees. In comparison with militia, it is ten times less. Therefore if to speak about our opportunities where our help - deep development is necessary, - we do it. All the rest is within the competence of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. I don't think that the SBU role in protection of the state and society against it will weaken.
- In mass media SBU work mainly on fight against crime is shined. And than today counterintelligence is engaged? Whether foreign scouts act in Ukraine, whether hire foreign intelligence services of the Ukrainian citizens? And for what? After all we are on friendly terms with all countries of NATO. Nauka, Military Industrial Complex and Armed forces are financed extremely badly, that is, new confidential development there, most likely, isn't present, economy in the crisis, all political secrets are known for everything. Whether detained SBU in recent years foreign scouts, and from what countries?
- Ukraine has serious development and secrets, and, therefore, interest of foreign intelligence services in recruitment of our citizens exists. They work or try to work at our territory rather actively, hiring the Ukrainian citizens and hunting for our development. Only for the last half a year in our territory seven foreign diplomats - scouts were exposed. At the moment we have three criminal cases on which pass including citizens of Ukraine. They were involved in illegal activity where made offenses. In four cases we managed not to allow commission by our citizens of offenses therefore they aren't brought to trial by prevention.
As for examples, for this period we exposed activity of one citizen of Russia who got scientifically - technical development in the sphere voyenno - an industrial complex for the Chinese intelligence service. In general - that, the intelligence service never calls the country which agent was detained as it offends this country therefore, I think, it is enough of it. We finish the work by demarches through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs or directly if we can call the representative of the relevant intelligence service.Moreover, if there is a need, we send these people from our territory.
- Than SBU divisions which are engaged in protection of statehood, from the relevant divisions of KGB differ? After all often we hear from politicians, especially from opposition that the SBU overhears them, watches them, etc. Sometimes it even looks offensively for SBU. At the same time, in the next Russia we similar in relation to FSB don't hear anything and we don't see neither from politicians, nor from mass media. There are afraid of FSB, than our SBU more? Whether it concerns reputation of intelligence service?
- I will tell so. When politicians start discussing unduly the questions connected with separatism, it is infringement of territorial integrity of Ukraine. Therefore we reacted, and we will react to it very seriously. And our difference from KGB consists that we document all this and we report to the Ukrainian court which the decision makes responsible this or that person, or the organization. Example. Literally a few days ago, we received the case decision when the Crimean court condemned for four years (conditionally) one of activists of the Sevastopol — the Crimea — Russia organization (Semyon Klyuev - the Bus). We are very grateful to the Ukrainian court for a lawful position. Leader of this so-called Popular front (Valery Podyachy. - Bus), we too will surely find and we will make responsible.
Second example. On December 10 the Sevastopol district administrative court forcibly dismissed the radical organization "Slavyane". We warned these people that they break the law, but their illegal actions didn't stop. Third example. Since 2007 we lawfully pursued the Donetsk Republic organization to which leaders now concrete charges too are brought. Business about so-called "subcarpathian the rusinakh" too in court.
The answer to politicians who say that listens to them SBU, is an absolute lie. And that once and for all to remove this question, I think that next year we will initiate changes to the legislation. After all if suspicions in offenses concerning the person weren't confirmed, nobody prevents us to acquaint him with quickly - technical materials. Us often criticize that we put on listening of 1000 lines, and we file a lawsuit 100 or 10. And so, we put to find out, eat an offense or not.If suspicions weren't confirmed, we have to give you records of conversations or with your permission destroy them if were confirmed - to bring within criminal case to trial.
Certainly, various conversations on listening of politicians negatively affect reputation of SBU, but we will go further and to become more open and under control to the law. On the other hand, I would like to discredit the myth that in Ukraine much more people, than in other countries of the European Union are listened. Level of our safety allows us to approach to listening "pointwise".
As for Russia, I can tell only that there too there are similar charges of listening, simply we know of it less.
- How in general put from dekagebizatsiy SBU?
- The dekagebization question for SBU is already irrelevant.
- At the beginning of a flu epidemic there was a message that the SBU closed some drugstores in which any violations were revealed. It really belongs to powers of SBU? What division did it? It was the initiative of SBU or it you was connected from above?
- It is a lie. In the first days of epidemic we helped Ministry of Health and public health service. In what our help consisted? I asked the colleagues from the point of view of counteraction to corruption acts to carry out an inspection of drugstores in one day: prices of medicines or where they in general are absent are how exceeded. On Monday real information already lay at the Minister of Health on a table. On it all! Farther they already decided on their control bodies: to apply or not to apply sanctions. I didn't close any drugstore of SBU, moreover, I had no right of it to do.
- For 2009 to you were appointed several deputies who weren't lawyers and had no relation to law-enforcement activity, not to mention vocational education. One of them as it appeared, even about the higher education had an invalid diploma. What do you think of it?
- I am responsible for personnel policy therefore I bear full responsibility for candidates including the deputy of Andrey Kislinsky who couldn't prove diploma existence about the higher education. On this case I can tell that when we translate people from public institutions, check any more doesn't concern those data which were checked by Glavgossluzhba.In the constitutional state each person himself bears responsibility for those data which he submits when comes to the public office. But after a case with Kislinsky we made changes to the regulations therefore we will strengthen now check and civil servants.
- What checked SBU?
- Our personnel division made out the corresponding admission which were got by Kislinsky. As was and with me when I passed from diplomatic service into SBU. Diplomas were checked by Glavgossluzhba.
- Who will answer now?
- Responsible it is necessary to look for in Glavgossluzhbe.
- By the way, whether Tiberiya Durdints's search proceeds?
- No. Business is transferred to normal legal relations. He answers as also I to it answered, questions of the investigator of the State Office of Public Prosecutor. Tibery Yuryevich - the general - the major - and remains further in a reserve of Security service of Ukraine.
- Last week in the press there was information that in Lugansk area the collector car with money is detained. Referring to interrogation of detainees, it was noted that probably this money had to go for bribery of voters in Lugansk and Donetsk areas. What you know of it? In your opinion, whether the facts of bribery of voters will take place on these elections? How the SBU will fight against it? In general, how you consider, this election campaign will be aggressively dirty or not?
- The SBU exposed the serious konvertatsionny center which had character regional, - functioned in Lugansk and Donetsk areas. Most of all we were disturbed with that on this center which had a big money turnover, worked some staff of bank. Us 296 forged seals were revealed, it is a lot of cash, some honeycombs of false business concerns. And the most important - during detention there was a collector car, that is in this gangster scheme the system bank - the client was used. Meanwhile information on focus of this money is checked.
As for election campaign. I think that it will be dirty so as far as we are dirty. If each citizen does it purer, everything will be much simpler. After all all election system is constructed on participation of citizens in the commissions, vote, calculation, supervision and so on.
I want to note that today the SBU is capable to protect Central Election Commission servers, computer programs, and at this stage we already help to protect the register of voters. Yes, violations come across, but for day these crimes are investigated. I am convinced that if each citizen will responsibly treat performance of the duties, we won't allow to change a people choice. And society already at us another, it won't allow to break the law as it was in 2004.
- You already repeatedly declared that criminal case brought by Security service of Ukraine upon the Holodomor of 1932-1933, until the end of this year will be brought to trial. Whether you by the inquiries received any documentary materials from Russia or from other countries? From your point of view after the judicial instance will put the end in this case - concrete charges to specific people will be brought, - whether will change this consciousness of those people who consider, what the genocide of the Ukrainian people wasn't? Whether it is enough in legal sense of documentary confirmations, what it was the genocide of the Ukrainian people?
- I don't think that is necessary in the compulsory way to change consciousness of people, after all we pursue absolutely other aim. Now a number of examinations on this criminal case therefore we intend to bring until the end of the year it to trial comes to an end. Documents suffice is 253 volumes. Our inquiries went and to the Russian FSB from which the last answer was that inquiries are transferred to processing to prosecutor's office of the Russian Federation. I am convinced that all truthful data which exist in Ukraine and are established by a consequence, and these are cards, documents, surnames - are the sign of genocide in the concrete territory.
It once and for all will remove a question - why nearly 10 million Ukrainians were lost for hunger? Why the international experts concerning us used the term "postgenotsidny nation"? Why and what western companies used what Bolsheviks took out grain the abroad, etc.? But the point on this case is only the beginning of many other processes: civil, moral, legal, political. And the most important - I very much hope that memory of our parents and all those who lived in the territory of 17 areas where the genocide was carried out will be returned.
- What do you think of lustration in that look how it is recommended by some politicians?
- Having worked as three years with KGB archives, I changed the relation to lustration a little.Because in these documents I saw how certificates what tortures existed were really beaten out and, in general, as criminally the power treated people. It is convinced that lustration for our country in that understanding as it there passed the European states, is impossible. Because, in - the first, in ranks of "informers" wrote down people who never had relations to it, in - the second, many documents were forged, and in - the third as I already told, from people by means of tortures beat out "indications".
Investigation of genocide is only part of all those crimes which were done by the Soviet power from 1917 to 1991. Intimidation of people was terrible therefore when we will understand all these crimes, only then it is possible to speak about parallel lustration.
I work in SBU three years. When I came to this position, we even didn't dream that it is possible to come for initiation of legal proceedings. But within the last two years life changed, including for Security service of Ukraine. I think that anything terrible doesn't happen if we - two wait a year more while will pass investigations of other bloody crimes of the Soviet mode already on objective documents to start lustration process.
- The People's Deputy Grigory Omelchenko sent the copy of the deputy address to the President of Ukraine Victor Yushchenko where it is spoken about allegedly delay of GPU from - for political expediency "end of a pretrial investigation and criminal prosecution of organizers and customers of stealing and murder of the journalist Georgy Gongadze" to edition of "Day". In particular, mister Omelchenko specifies that Alexey Pukach detained in the summer completely admitted the guilt and gave evidences about organizers and customers of a crime. That you can tell about prospects of final investigation of so-called resonant affairs, - Gongadze's murder, poisoning of the President V. Yushenko, rather People's Deputy Lozinsky, the judge Zvarich and others.
- As for Georgy Gongadze's murder. This very serious and resonant business. The SBU coped with the put task - found, detained and delivered to Kiev Alexey Pukacha. Moreover, us it contains in the safe camera. With it daily has opportunity to work the investigator of the State Office of Public Prosecutor who observes a mode of secrecy of the investigation, for what I very much respect it. I hope that he effectively reports on the General prosecutor.He doesn't report on the chairman of SBU, therefore me it is hard to say what should expect or be not to expected the following procedural decision from an investigation team.
Places in the woods which were specified by Pukach, we found, dug out and carried out the corresponding expertizes. They testify to terrible things - places of mass burials anywhere didn't get to from Ukraine. Remains of ten corpses are found in one of the specified burials with signs of violent death. Certainly, it is very important to establish customers of murder of Gongadze, but also is important to establish customers of these ten murders. And all victims aged till 45-50 years among which there are also women.
In the matter of Zvarich. I said to it that it will be behind a lattice, there it now and is. And it is very good that the court prolonged its term of stay. But matter not only in Zvarich. At all respect for a judicial cloak, it is serious criminal group. I am sure that the sentence across Zvarich will be.
As for Lozinsky, I can tell that we search for him and, I think, with him there will be the same result as well as with Pukachem. I wouldn't advise it to hope for the patrons. It is better to fulfill requirements of the State Office of Public Prosecutor and to be to it most, otherwise, it will be found and delivered in the compulsory way.
Business of poisoning of Yushchenko. Since 2004 over this business the powerful investigation team of the State Office of Public Prosecutor works. The SBU, as well as the Ministry of Internal Affairs, carries out many procedural decisions concerning this business. For example, with the permission of court, by us are carried out quickly - technical actions. But it is necessary to wait for result only from an investigation team.
- You can answer a question - why many affairs are transferred to the State Office of Public Prosecutor, and there they are slowed down?
- About it it is necessary to speak with specialists of the State Office of Public Prosecutor. I am responsible only for the department. But as and we, at them have certain legal obligations and the restrictions set by the law. And if you don't carry out them at all expectations of society, then you, or the nonprofessional, either you break the law, or you discredit business. I think that the reason is covered among these answers.
- On the route Kiev - Borispol on the poster of protesters from - for not solutions of the land question it is written: "Nalivaychenko of SOS! Reyderi in girlfriend the earth in the village to Shchasliva". Our newspaper wrote about this situation. I on the instructions of edition had to study a problem on a place.People are driven to despair! Whether you know about it? How you will comment? Whether means it, what the last hope at people everything is on SBU?
- It isn't a surname. I with pleasure would help if had powers at least such as at the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Helped from what point of view? I am convinced that everything that happened to KSP "Borispolskoye", couldn't but occur without participation of the previous management of regional administration, regional council, and therefore, already present bureaucrats. As far as I know, there the present land acts on two - three times are changed, moreover, changes are made including to zemleuporyadochivayushchy documents. Therefore today it is necessary to resolve these issues serially, and there where they aren't solved, it is necessary to offer people compensation honestly. One Nalivaychenko in this situation will make nothing, it is necessary to work with everything and to meet people.
- There were both Yushchenko, and Tymoshenko, both Litvin, and Lutsenko and others. Who is capable to resolve this issue?
- Today the legislation changed. Therefore even the highest position doesn't resolve an issue which the regional administration or council can solve, for example. Without their consent, nobody will make the decision - neither Nalivaychenko, nor the President.
- Under the Budgetary code, the earth which is outside settlement point, the regional public administration which is in turn subordinated to the President disposes.
- It is correct therefore I and say that all need to gather, listen to local officials, simple people and to resolve an issue.
- In the summer of this year you said that after December 13 everything (by your words of 19 officers) the staff of FSB of Russia on the Black Sea fleet of the Russian Federation has to leave the territory of Ukraine. And safety of the Russian seamen will be assigned to divisions of military counterintelligence of SBU in Sevastopol and Simferopol. Russia agreed on such option? How work in this direction moves ahead?
- As it was agreed with our Russian colleagues, all 19 employees of FSB till December 13 left the territory of Ukraine. Today in Sevastopol there are enough SBU forces to ensure safety and Ukrainian, and the Russian seamen.
- The Ukrainian Constitution forbids a dual citizenship, but there are not isolated cases when, except Ukrainian, people have either Russian, or Romanian, either Bulgarian, or any others of nationality.We know that in South Ossetia and in Abkhazia there were many locals with the Russian passports. How the SBU reacts to it? As who needs to do?
- On our territory has to operate our legislation, including, and in nationality questions where the principal control organ is the Ministry of Internal Affairs is exclusive. Besides, there is a special commission on nationality questions at the President of Ukraine. Where international passports - in consulates are issued, I don't see any problems at the level of two Ministries of Foreign Affairs accurately to settle these questions. For example, consulates of the Russian Federation steadily adhered to our legislation concerning granting or nationality deprivation. If the Ukrainian citizen addresses in the Russian consulate about granting nationality of Russia to it, the consul has to politely to it write or explain that until while it won't bring the certificate of the termination of the Ukrainian nationality, Russian he won't receive. And now you ask - why so doesn't become? But because it is necessary to bring accurately this requirement to all consulates and when we give out to the foreign consul экзекватуру or we open new consulate, we have to establish own rules. Such principle has to exist in all directions of development of the Ukrainian state.
Ivan KAPSAMUN, Ruslan KANYUKI'S photo, "Day" No. 230, Friday, December 18, 2009