Lutsenko: "Kernes - the schizophrenic. It since the childhood has a reference"

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A week ago I spoke with the killed, and now you see him dead - with bullets in a back"

What outcome "was put by Yerokhina"?

From militia business took away in the first month. It was investigated by prosecutor's office, to the killer brought charges, him condemned.

So shortly you speak about the person who was close to you?

It, excuse, the myth leading own life.

All know: I have a friend Yura Voskoboynikov. We for a long time and strong are on friendly terms, we have often a rest families. Time here had so a rest and at the bottom the birth whether Yura, whether his wives he acquainted me with Yerokhin. Voskoboynikov himself a sort from Donetsk region and Yerokhin presented, as "the person working in your system". Well, reaped the friend - to the friend of a hand.

Yerokhin told: is engaged in the konvertatsionny centers, in Donetsk don't allow to work at full capacity. Decided to try to develop a subject from Kiev ГУБОПа. Yerokhin, with him some more persons, were sent to Kiev. In this office it appeared twice. The first - when I set to it a task, it then still worked with Kornich in central office УБОЗа. The second I caused it before holiday. The result wasn't almost any, work didn't go, business trip was

the useless. He explained: in areas people refuse to carry out its orders,

necessary for carrying out prompt actions.

"Probably", - I answer. But I can't penetrate into that does or each employee of department doesn't do - I won't be in time simply. More shortly, I told Yerokhina: you or result yield, or go back.

You made comments on the fact of his death extremely emotionally. About foreign person - the ordinary employee - so don't speak.

You know, I went to militia work not in twenty years - nerves at me strong, but all - sometimes touches. At the time of its murder I was in holiday. With the same Voskoboynikov, again, by the way, families had a rest.

Naturally, I was reported by incident details. It became clear, Yerokhin had the brother who has with own hand dug out a corpse of the senior in the wood, in some days after its disappearance. Photos from a crime scene always heavy but if a week ago you spoke with the killed, and now you see it dead with bullets in a back …

This picture was always on my mind. Besides think: the colonel ГУБОПа at execution stole from the official car, killed … Case, certainly, the special. On our materials the group of persons which was densely tracing the victim was quickly lit. People with whom suspects communicated were established also. At that time investigations of murders was competence of prosecutor's offices.

Certainly, I was interested in a further course of investigation, but not long. Soon I was set aside from a post of the minister and naturally a little that could know about an investigation course.

And how about communication with deputies of Rada?

I will tell so: if to lift materials quickly - search and criminal I put, contact of performers with them took place to be, however, the prosecutor's office during the investigation didn't see appropriate evidential base.

"БТР+чай = useful combination"

Discussing resonant incidents, we began with the Crimea. In Donetsk your name connect with business not so much Yerokhin, how many, perhaps, with "A white swan" and Nemsadze's gang. Other events - more than 2005-го, than 2006-го years. When "To bandits - prisons" you concentrated efforts on subject implementation of the slogan in the miner's capital and its vicinities.

(after a pause) Now it is possible to speak about it more … I remember how in the spring 2005-го, having arrived from an office trip to Kazakhstan, having hardly got into the car, received a call from Moroz. "You know that you did! : Whom did you arrest? ".

Frost?

Sure. The Socialist party delegated me to the power. Clearly: I had political responsibility before colleagues.

And so, about Kolesnikov's business I for the first time learned from Moroz!

Having reached the city, I dropped in for few minutes in this office, from here - to report in the Verkhovna Rada. Deputies if you remember, demanded the report on an event. Literally in a lobby for a lapel a jacket Piskun caught me, speaks: "you now act. Help, as the colleague …".

Cover, that is?

(nods). Actually, I then assumed political protection of the business which details I had no.The main materials - that were in GPU! Therefore when today Kolesnikov shouts about Lutsenko's repressions … Sorry, key figures everything at it in fraction sit, could and understand among themselves.

I correctly understand: if action happened today, in remarks, estimates and the forecasts sounded from a parliamentary tribune, you would be less emotional and more careful?

Then I told that told. Today would arrive differently. That's for sure! I honestly would explain: business is run by prosecutor's office, and the militia carries out separate prompt actions on its assignment.

As aboutother resonant? In 2005 - m were still Tikhonov, Bogatyreva, Kushnarev - "shells lay down everything closer and closer, however, Evgeny Petrovich? ". And the Lyuks firm still remembers armored personnel carriers.

The decision with Armoured personnel carriers absolutely correct - I am convinced of it. You understand, all kuchmovsky elite was sure of the inviolability. That to them, unlike other citizens, the law not писан. That they can't go on interrogations, not to let the militiamen who have come to a search with the corresponding permission vessels.

Here Akhmetov: the regional court decided to carry out at it a search, and the person refuses to open gate. Whether there was at us other exit?

It abroad then was.

Means, protection didn't let it. What's the odds? It doesn't change an essence. By the way, resistance to employees of militia at execution is penal. Time is resistance, so it has to be broken. To confirm justice of the slogan "The law one for all! "

Indicative example?

Yes! Indicative broken resistance. If with a search are to Lutsenko, it opens doors and invites to pass, and Akhmetov is obliged to do the same! It is obliged to create all conditions for due implementation of the judicial resolution. I put, of course, past, but also today I consider: the combination of armored personnel carriers with tea is very useful.

That is?

Sometimes, if there is no corresponding understanding, it is necessary to apply armored personnel carriers. I will tell on - to a secret: we and on call had a helicopter. But I wasn't useful - the search was carried out. It was necessary to interrogate mister Akhmetov still.

The president authorized me to hold personally negotiations with it - to convince him to testify on a number of affairs. I left for Austria. I won't hide: at the airport of Vienna I was met by Rinat Leonidovich's people. We met on терассе hotel - I don't remember the name.Perhaps, for the first time I drank one glass of beer for six hours.

Why one? Didn't treat more?

Under such conversations there is a lot of beer, especially - something another, you won't drink (laughs). And so, after six-hour conversation he agreed to give evidences. I convinced him: otherwise, he can simply not politicize, do business in this country.

Well, and upon Akhmetov's return and tea drinking happened?

Yes. It came to the Ministry of Internal Affairs. I suggested to choose a tea grade: white with a kipyatochok, green, black … He preferred the red. Drank каркаде, have a talk. Then the investigator came and, having taken him by hand, directly from this office, led to itself. The protocol of interrogation of the witness was made on all provisions of the law.

Today many sneer: instead of that teas with Akhmetov it was necessary to drink, arrest him.

But I insist: we not in 38 - m to year, and my surname - not Beria. But are obliged to fulfill law requirements all. To swing a saber, handcuffs to tinkle is for cinema only well. It is more important to establish the equality atmosphere before the law, to remove political "taboos".

I repeat: the combination of armored personnel carriers and tea served as an excellent example for the others. People understood: it is important to be law-abiding.

Closing "a Donetsk subject". Past year многу noise was done by Boris Penchuk's who has caught you new recognitions that you almost personally forced to commit perjury it.

I don't want to make comments on it. His behavior surprises and grieves me. The person three times changing own indications, has to answer. If it said lies, coming to militia with inveracious certificates, means will sit down. Otherwise "Kolesnikov's business" will revive. It happens either that, or that - on - to another can't simply be. The most interesting: for both of them I am an enemy. Found the extreme!

"Any more I won't give a hand to Pukshin"

Estimating events 2005-го as a whole, you can recognize, at last, that activity of your department then was excessively politized?

The militia worked romantically - considerably, it is the truth. And the shaft of criminal cases encountered the ranks of figures of last mode closed in opposition. Estimating those affairs today, I consider that my behavior wasn't politized, it is rather too emotionally and fondly.At the Public prosecutor tied firmly by fetters of the past, the romantic from the Maidan could hope for result only! Though Piskun was the actor still that! Activity of the Ministry of Internal Affairs at change of the power is politized in each country of the world. Take though Russia, though France. As to minimize it, it is well visible on the example of Poland which model of a state administration is close and clear to me. There the Interior Minister - too a figure political. But in its maintaining the budget, shots, formation of priorities in work. In total! His right hand - the chief commandant of police, people in shoulder straps is engaged in the rest. Believe when I, happen, I ask the Polish minister questions which by the nature of service most should be seized, he simply doesn't understand about what I speak. Speaks, ask the commandant. Also it is normal practice for Europe. We have a Ministry of Internal Affairs still the militia ministry.

The full-fledged Ministry of Internal Affairs with functions not only law-enforcement, but also civil simply doesn't exist. So, for example, the President year already, on unclear absolutely to the reasons, torpedoes the decision on creation of Migratory service. Probably, Baloga decided that it something like a passport office. And as he wants to take away from Zhvaniya the passport … - organizes the Decree about stay of action of the government resolution. That is 15 thousand illegal migrants a year are, and the mechanism of their detention, the contents and deportation it isn't necessary for us?

Pukshin's hands how you claimed earlier?

It is its main resource of work with judges. Yes, and it not only on Zhvaniya concentrated. The judges considering my cases, too I tried "to study".

In the summer you declared: it allegedly personally pressed the highest militia ranks of the capital.

Yes, I called of

Ranks of the indication gave? Where business? Pressure upon people in shape is at all corruption!

Not on it to get the protocol on corruption! I pound? Two hundred hryvnias of a penalty? I suspect, mister Pukshin about existence of such notes at all doesn't suspect.

Well, and if it is serious, and I, and mister Yarema to whom Pukshin tried to issue instructions, publicly explained to him, than it is fraught. I believe, it is enough of it. And here is how it pressed on judges that they recognized though one of lime affairs on Lutsenk, precisely knowing, at this time I sat under operational my son - God to it the judge, but to it I won't offer a hand. I never it will forget.

"Kernes has two criminal records, instead of one.Moreover and reference on "shizukh"

We will move to Kharkov. In the summer the country not without curiosity watched power drives on interrogations in a capital central board of the secretary of the Kharkov City Council Gennady Kernes (he in detail told about it to "Transport" here - "Where I and where drugs? " and here "Lutsenko - not Machiavelli" ). Caused it on the case of custom-made murder, thus, what to kill, actually, wanted it and Dobkin. In passing you told about a drug traffic in Kharkov and allegedly participation of city heads in channels of these deliveries. Promised to bring the matters into court at most in three months, and passed already half a year.

The event in Kharkov is very similar to events in Donetsk, on history with Armoured personnel carriers. Three years later again it was necessary to remind: the law one for all. If the person evades from evidence on the ground that he is a secretary of the City Council, it will be all the same compelled to testify. Even if it is necessary to apply the power drive. And the reference on Kernes's "shizukh" won't rescue.

That is?

It has a reference that it is sick with schizophrenia. Form 7B so-called.

From what it is a time?

Since the childhood! (laughs) Long ago I wrote out it - that from everything "to dodge" - from army, from prison.

The reference appears in materials of criminal case on which he was condemned till 1991 in the territory of the present Russian Federation.

(are given below докумнты to which on a course of conversation Lutsenko referred. Originals are printed on the typewriter therefore quality of the image of separate fragments leaves much to be desired. -S. K.)



Kernes has, apparently, one criminal record dated the beginning 90-x, connected with excessively cunning commercial activity.

It and was judged earlier - in 1986 - m. Simply to responsibility, in view of reference existence, I wasn't attracted.

So with a drug traffic?

Earlier I couldn't call surnames, now I will tell. It is a question of the deputy of one their Kharkov regional councils Medvedev delivering drugs in the city. It was punished in the most severe way for granting low-quality goods under thieves' laws - to it cut off a nose and ears. Today we have suspicions of rather particular persons in commission of this crime.

It turned out so that the group of persons detained within another matter gave surrender, having confessed in commission of some other crimes, including in participation in "Medvedev's business".

Now main in the attempt organization - the citizen Mikhaylichenko by nickname "Johnson" is wanted.

Dobkin with Kernes in business appear?

Yes, there are indications concerning these persons. Therefore them interrogate. While as witnesses.

Tell, on Firtash the Ministry of Internal Affairs has something? And that the Russian prosecutor's office on it already opened case.

No, we don't have anything. Except unless political rejection. In Russia, as far as I know, there are affairs of economic character where pass its firms.

Yes, for failure to pay taxes. And on the wanted list him already put. By the way, business of the citizen of the Russian Federation Kurochkin in висяк turned?

The prosecutor's office was engaged in it, the militia was attracted only to search by actions. For today in business while without changes (after a pause).

Kurochkin was one of my main ill-wishers. When there was that happened, I didn't direct department - was in deep opposition, however it letters from - for the lattices published on your site … I won't tell that I was frightened, but, I admit, trembled. There I there was a speech about my children. Three times already I had to reflect on their safety, to provide with protection - paid, certainly, from own pocket. The first time - during

the Crimean cleaning, the second - in connection with Kurochkin, the third - after events in Kharkov.

… Frankly speaking, it seems to me illogical that to the former prime ministers and speakers lifelong state protection, and ex-to heads of GPU and the Ministry of Internal Affairs - No. is put. Certainly, I will always manage to protect myself, but, in general - that the minister and the first deputy should have thought of protection allocation. Well or at least about delivery of the personal weapon, also - about possible, in case of need, providing protection to family members. In Europe it is normal practice, in Ukraine, on - visible, for the present "didn't ripen" and I as you understand, I won't begin to initiate question consideration in the same parliament (laughs).

In mentioned already Alexander Medvedko enthusiastically told interview to "Transport" about joint with your activities for capture of Pukacha. How there was an established fact of its stay in the territory of Ukraine, a circle of people to which it contacted.

Motions really are, but I won't begin to tell about them in the interests of the investigation now. In due time the general Pukach headed the special department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs called "in the people" "seven", an outdoor advertizing that is. This person possesses enormous baggage of special knowledge that, of course, you complicate process of its search. Though search events are held very actively.

"All political forces are involved in land corruption"

Recently as one of the main unmaskers of various organized criminal groups the President acts. He about "Kapitoshke" tells that at National Security and Defense Council meetings, about a land mafia. You references give it to it?

No, SBU, I think.

As for a "land" question, it was a priority of last year and we together with prosecutor's office very effectively, I consider, it fulfilled.

There two components. The first - a presidential vertical, system of public administrations bypassing which дерибанить the earth it is impossible. For last year more than 150 officials of the state administrations of regional and regional level are made responsible as the accused. The second - a vertical of executive power from Goskomzem's system. There number of corrupt officials approximately same. And the third - heads rural, settlement and the City Councils. Despite modest, apparently, positions, in their offices demand enormous bribes - to 42 million dollars!

Goskomzem's officials on the whole БЮТом are put that gave to the President the grounds to accuse Tymoshenko of participation in "a land mafia".

Under pressure of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and GPU the government was compelled to replace Goskomzem's guide.

For Cabinet of Ministers the impossibility of further preservation of existing orders became obvious, and it is plus. For the President while, unfortunately, isn't present.

I want to ask, without any dirty trick: if 150-ти charges are brought to officials of its vertical by prosecutor's office, someone has to be responsible for what submitted it for the signature decrees about their appointment? ! Clearly, of course, that personally Yushchenko doesn't know each head of the district state administration and the nobility can't, but after all someone recommends them, checks, controls? And if nobody is punished - means, it isn't simple админвертикаль, and a vertical of collecting!

Acting on the "land" National Security and Defense Council, addressing to Yushchenko, I told:"Victor Andreevich, a medal has some parties, here both a presidential vertical, and executive power, and local government.

Here the acting chief Goskomzema who is earlier judged on whom episodes - from the Czech Republic to Ukraine, for me in general wildness that it here is present" sits. But you shouldn't pretend that a problem only in it.

All political forces, I tell it absolutely consciously, set in zemelno - distributive branch of the corrupt officials. Continuing "house war", the part of fault wants to recognize nobody - everything brings down on opponents.

Whereas it is necessary not extreme to look for, but to make the basic decision once and for all to clear the land sphere of schemers. For this purpose it is necessary to accept a number of laws.

"Klyuev any more in first "Mercedes" went, and I in tent "Ukraine without Kuchma" sat"

We will talk about policy. Summing up the results 2008-го, you told: "National self-defense" coped with primary tasks. What's next? During formation of the present coalition you openly drifted towards BYuT.

Yes anywhere NANOSECOND didn't drift - we are stable in the views and votes.

Left so that presidential part of NSNU "otdreyfovala" from initial positions. There was a worst: political force confused will of the leader with an order of voters. Therefore - that the agreements reached with our colleagues at the time of creation of the block also were corrected. At us everything remained on - former. We promised people the democratic coalition? Everything that it took place made. Promised premiership of the democratic leader? Let with overweight in the minimum quantity of voices, but Tymoshenko was elected the head of KMU. Promised not to allow the coalitions with regionals - didn't allow the President to realize this arrangement.

… How many Yushchenko didn't try to convince me that the speaker Plyushch - the benefit, I - that understood: it is a direct way to the further coalition with the Ave.

And even the friend Klyuev of your opinion couldn't change?

Yes, we are on friendly terms, all know it. What here the such? Understand: I don't consider members of PR as automatically bad people, especially - enemies, it is simple they - our political opponents. But to communicate - that all the same and with all is necessary for all - spoke already.

Here, Vasily Kisilev calls me the other day. I take the call: "Anybody also call him in any way listens"! (laughs) But after all he calls in interests of voters of the Crimea.So emotions and offenses - aside.

And we often call up to Andrey, we pin up each other. When I am a minister, he calls: "Hello antinational power", well and vice versa: "hello to the main oppositionist". We see each other now time two in a month - it turned out more often earlier.

We are absolutely different people, though one age. I from the Western Ukraine, it - from the East. Having gone to business, it began with the Chinese down-padded coats, now came to powerful corporation, is planned also system bank. I worked as the engineer at plant, from where moved to administrative positions. When Andrey Petrovich went by not first "Mercedes", I still sat in tent "Ukraine without Kuchma".

We live in the different worlds, nevertheless the opinion of this person, to it - mine is interesting to me. And we can argue, swear even, however, I appreciate truthfulness, openness in Andrey. If he speaks "yes", it means "yes", instead of "can be" or we "will allow".

Tell how the friendship arose.

When I from SPU депутатствовал. Once socialists "threw": we voted for the program of activity of the government of PR, and they in an exchange had to support proportional elections, but the word didn't keep. I then told from a tribune much: "I thought that I deal with the big fish, it appeared with the six". Then there were dismantlings, promises "to redeem" such words with blood …

(smiles, remembering)

You know: Andrey is always active in interfractional contacts, here and then … Understood that to frighten me it is useless and send the reasonable contactor. Edik Prutnik with whom we across Donetsk were familiar acquainted us.

Perhaps you and communicate with Medvedchuk?

No, once after revolution by phone spoke.

Near Tymoshenko you notice its presence?

Isn't present (perplexedly). Cleaners at the prime minister conscientious - in an office it is always pure.

In general Medvdechuk's influence on Tymoshenko as it seems to me, is strongly exaggerated. That case when the myth leads the life.

Here you claim, we approached with Tymoshenko … "Self-defense" always the main task saw in forcing Yushchenko and Tymoshenko to give hands towards each other. To grit teeth, but to meet. As soon as it occurred, between them war right there began. It is compelled to recognize, in 2006 the initiative went from BYuT, this time the majority of attacks undertook Bank, conceived the coalition with the Ave.

… During creation of the present coalition we communicated with the President. Very not easy and long enough - hour by phone and hour one and a half at it in an office. However everyone remained at the opinion. Yushchenko spoke: "We will be able to elect our speaker". "And Yatsenyuk the stranger was? ". "Yura, don't touch the past". I answered: "Unfortunately, it developed so that the word "our" in our relations, already unacceptably. At first - Baloga, then - you, made everything to discredit, make persons under investigation, and then to declare traitors of national interests me and my companions.

Therefore there is no "our block" already. But there is the general interest - the President elected on a plan of part Byutovtsev in parliament moreover and Yanukovych, for me is inconceivable. But also on the Ivy, according to the scenario Bank, I will disagree understanding that it is a way to the prime minister Yanukovych. NANOSECOND choice - Litvin and demkoalition expansion".

As for Tymoshenko. She, as well as Yushchenko, very heavy interlocutor, but in difference from Victor Andreevich is capable to hear still people, to perceive any arguments.

Because intend to support her in fight for presidency?

For today we have no such arrangements. We in general yet didn't discuss it. I guarantee it to you. Therefore I support her. She is the only politician ruining a rating on rescue of the country from waves of powerful crisis. Though could come off in September in opposition and quietly wait for a post of the President.

I will ask differently: if Yushchenko decides again to stand, you will help him?

I will support Victor Andreevich until the end of his present constitutional term. Then - No. But also I won't begin to throw mud, of course, too.

Perhaps still to propose own candidate you will decide?

No, I won't begin to stand. Parade of ambitions of newly appeared saviors of the nation, but team work is important not. Nobody will save the country itself, only team of adherents which won't turn the country into next "mess" of absurdity.

How it can be guaranteed? Only results of the previous period. You judge: if we speak Turchynov, we mean Tymoshenko. Whether team they? Certainly. I in this team don't jam, but is ready to sit down and agree about the principles of collaboration, to discuss the purposes, strategy. Perhaps, now for this purpose it is a high time. Regardless of the one who becomes a candidate, rules of the game of team need to be defined in advance.

Next the Messiah will change nothing. We already passed it. At new players with presidential ambitions good chances to prove to be, but - not to become the president.

The good person, hope of the nation - not the same that the leader of team, the head of the country.

It is possible to criticize as is wished Yushchenko, however if not he - not to happen to you the second time the minister.

Yes, most likely, it so. On a course of one of conversations of Balogi and Tymoshenko Mintrans, fixed to NSNU, it was exchanged for the Ministry of Internal Affairs. However I said that I don't want to go on a position if there are no system changes in bodies of prosecutor's office repeatedly. I agreed only after these changes were promised. They, however, didn't happen, and I was compelled to build anew the relations with the present management of GPU. Considering what exactly Lutsenko was one of authors of the resolution on removal of Medvedko, the task appeared not from simple.

You told so much negative about Baloge, be I on your place - already hundred times him would arrest.

It couldn't even the Russian with Zhvaniya who don't love it even more, to make, be they on my place. I already spoke: everything, as for officials - a prosecutor's office parafiya. If, let us assume, walking in the morning, Baloga will rob someone, for his arrest all the same the sanction of prosecutor's office is required to me. Maximum of opportunities of militia - to detain at 72 o'clock.

… Many charges in my address sounded in connection with commission of a number of private flights allegedly for the state account. The court proved their insolvency. Even to the Crimea - due to own holiday, I flied on service - on meeting to the President. Whereas flights of Balogi, numerous, all are paid from accounts of the offshore company which is most directly related to insurers and forwarding agents of "Faina". Such impression that from - for the greed Victor Ivanovich declassified granaries of illegal weapon business. However and it, and the Ukraine state air enterprise GPU can check only. I - No, though am sure that the crime structure there will easily be found. By the way, we officially sent the corresponding materials to GPU.

Finally tell about in what your elder brother Sergey now is engaged, on - former "Self-defense".

Yes, doesn't get out of the car - all the time practically carries out on trips on areas. Time where - that in two weeks, hours per eight mornings, comes to me - tells about results.We planned carrying out full congress for February "Forward, Ukraine! ", with formalization of party structure, symbolics, etc. "National self-defense" as insurgent social movement the mission, really, already executed. The party with accurate ideological installations is now necessary - the Makhnovism period for us is finished.

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