The big table in its spacious study in the building of the Ministry of Internal Affairs (with the plate on a door "The adviser to the Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine) is densely forced by piles of folders with documents. According to the owner, the People's Deputy from the "Our Ukraine — National Self-defense" block Gennady Moskal, the lion's share of papers - lawmaking fruits. A year ago its bill of creation of Anti-corruption bureau, among other things, encroaching on similar functions of SBU and the Ministry of Internal Affairs, did a lot of noise. The law the project yet didn't become, but the author doesn't give up, speaks, the threat proceeding from "white collars" became too great for the country.
However, in recent months the first deputy head of parliamentary Committee on questions of fight against organized crime and corruption began to be engaged in writing of laws less. But, probably, I imprinted in memory of general public a persistent irritant of office of the President of Ukraine and personally the head of the Secretariat Victor Balogi. Or a clinch with the management of Security service of Ukraine, removed from the sphere of an exchange of courtesies by means of journalists in halls of court sessions. About lawmaking crisis, the "warm" relations with Bank and SBU, people to whom it has to nothing and to whom it is obliged, ex-the governor of Zakarpatye and the Luhansk region, the former Deputy Interior Minister and the head of SBU told in interview.
- Gennady Gennadevich, statistics on a portal of the Verkhovna Rada shows that less than in one and a half years of a deputatstvo you became the author and the coauthor more than fifty bills. However two became existing acts only.Why so it isn't enough?
- Already many are considered by committees, are approved, recommended, many are processed three - four times but why - as soon as business reaches consideration of my bill in parliament, at once there are opponents. Besides, frankly speaking, at Arseniy Yatsenyuk the parliament didn't work, it practically accepted nothing. Only count, it was what is the time lost. I while suspended lawmaking, I don't want to work "for a warehouse" (nods on the table filled up with papers, - an edition).
- Your bill No. 2475 of January 26 of this year suggests to add the Law "About Political Parties in Ukraine" with the section on transparency of non-state financing of parties. What prospects of the amendment?
- All speak: election campaign at the expense of voters it is carried out. However we, in difference, say, from Obama's campaign when published reports on all financial contributions, similar don't have anything. But there are corruption schemes, everything is covered with a gloom and fog. I consider, this basic - people have to know who the sponsor of party, for whose account Bill - борды stand up, advertizing on television goes, newspapers are issued, at someone sling mud and trample down. Today it is better known that occurs in SBU, than in the middle of political parties, as for financing. The Audit Chamber can check SBU, and CREWE. In parties nobody will check, everything goes "cash".
My bill passed the first consideration in profile parliamentary committee, it studied in Ministry of Justice. All told: very interestingly. But I have big doubts that the project will be supported as all political parties sin. Task - at least to bring the project to a sessional hall and to show to the public, who and as voted.
- Set an example, begin with itself. How "National self-defense" is financed?
- We had donors during election campaign. The main and almost only - David Zhvaniya, after all members of group "National self-defense" in the majority - people with average prosperity, aren't present owners of factories and steamships. And now why to us donors? Everyone gets paid.
- By the way, you on - former the non-party. This state of mind or not such party which ideas Gennady Moskal would like?
- I would enter a party of common sense, sensible mind, but, unfortunately, in Ukraine it isn't present."National self-defense" - an exception, but it not party, and public organization. Well, still, it seems to me, Vladimir Litvin has quite democratic atmosphere. At the others everything is very rigid, centralized, everything occurs in coordination.
- "Our Ukraine" always applied that it almost the most democratic.
- Today "our Ukraine" as that isn't present. There are fragments - the association "For Ukraine", "Uniform Center" (there in general everything is covered with a gloom).
- And Nikolay Martynenko's group?
- I don't see today.
- Probably, many consider you today by an irritant Bank and personally Victor Balogi...
- Who so tells it - Victor Ivanovich? (smiles, - an edition). I simply tell the truth.
- What sources of opposition with the head of the Secretariat of the President? You aren't afraid of charges, say, in the political order or squaring of accounts?
- Yes there is no opposition. I it is simple as in the Turkmen song that I see - I sing that. I have on this moral right. Certainly, it isn't pleasant because me with them connects nothing. Here if I came to parliament, as some of "our Ukraine" - according to the recommendation of the President, Balogi, from public service … I came from the street. Me from the state work (in May, 2007 - from a post of the deputy head of SBU, - an edition) expelled on the street. I was lifted by Lutsenko and Zhvaniya. I only am obliged to them by entry into parliament. Therefore I am the free person and I can say everything that I want. If in something it isn't right - in court. But why - that anybody still didn't file a lawsuit against me and didn't prove that I say lies something or I exaggerate.
I know Balogu since 1995 when became the chief of the Department of Internal Affairs in the Zakarpatye area where mister Baloga was still simply a businessman. Then, in 2001 - m, I replaced it on a post of the governor... The matter is that already now people from its environment approached to me and asked: what you supposedly so criticize it? I answer: children when I came the governor, I in Zakarpatye had no mass media. They had newspapers, radio, powerful TV - studio. And they simply destroyed me...
- What wasn't pleasant?
- Whoever came, couldn't be better than Victor Ivanovich therefore to any the same destiny as to me was prepared. I endured.You suffer now and you, it isn't necessary to take offense. All experiments which they did over me in Zakarpatye, I do now over them.
- And alternative options any offered you? Type, "we will finish criticism, and in exchange we want loyalty in the such - that questions".
- No, I from such people that with me it is impossible to agree. Therefore I suffered. Over me poured buckets of slops from feet to the head. Any event which I held, their mass media showed in any comical light, created an image of any mad governor at zakarpatets.
- So all means - conflict roots there, in 2001-2002?
- No. They told that very basic and can't pass by shortcomings which are allowed by regional administration which I headed. But why I can't be basic too? I after all superfluous don't tell anything. Only about shortcomings. These stories with the Palankom lock, flights to Switzerland …
- It is good, even if Baloga and the corrupt official (that else it is necessary to prove in court), not only in Ukraine. Why such attention to his person?
- Simply it parades the actions - cynically, impudently. Also lets know that spat on all, начхал on yours of literary trash, checks.
- And what to have such enemy, how Baloga?
- To me it is absolute to a bulb. I very much worried, didn't sleep at all when in youth, after arrival to militia, I had the first enemy. But when their one thousand - one is less, one have more... I absolutely quietly treat it.
- What purpose - to dismiss from the Secretariat post of the head, to put in prison?.
- No, Perish the thought. We don't want that Victor Ivanovich was imprisoned, even in KPZ of three days. And resignation … Балога for political opponents it is irreplaceable. It from 20% reduced Victor Yushchenko's rating to 2%. It for the remained 10 months of presidency of Yushchenko needed to finish only these two.
Earlier, when wanted to rescue the President, really wanted, all wanted resignation of Balogi. All considered that it badly influences it. And then, when understood that it is the person necessary to it...
- Than it so fascinated the President?
- As speak, isn't able to refuse.Says that the President wants to hear - here all his secret. If he as Litvin, behaved boringly and argued, proved, sometimes left an office red, was thrown by papers. There such isn't present. Rubs in ears: Victor Andreevich, trust nobody, these are all enemies order inveracious sotsissledovaniye, the people you loves, the people will choose you, the alternative to you isn't present. One speaks, the second trusts it, and so to them is comfortable, except the people of Ukraine.
- When you were the governor of the Luhansk region, the permanent representative of the President in the Crimea, you considered yourselves as the person Yushchenko? If yes, that when stopped being it?
- I consider so: if the President appoints you, you have to serve this President. If you don't want to serve it - write the application, and wherever one wishes. Not to support policy of the head of state, being at a position of the governor or his constant representative, I couldn't. In Lugansk and to the Crimea I didn't dishonor the President, his authority didn't lower and tried even to lift as far as could.
Nevertheless, it happened as it happened: I learned about the dismissal by the decree of the President from a post of the deputy head of SBU from the TV. Then I read that it is appointed the deputy secretary of Council of national safety and defense. I go to the National Security and Defense Council in the morning, there already there were Valery Khoroshkovsky and the Secretary Vitaly Gayduk. I ask: you it is aware of business? They: no, we too learned from the TV. I'm saying: children, I very much respect you, but so I won't go for work. Also I didn't go. Anybody didn't invite me, didn't speak. Then already dismissed. Wrote off. Today I have no moral obligations to the President.
Even at Kuchma on - to another was. The Chief of Presidential Administration Victor Medvedchuk very much wanted that I from a post of the governor of Zakarpatye left. Not that it against me would have something, simply wanted to enter the party management (SDPU(O), - an edition) area. Me invited in Administration, offered the ambassador to Romania, then - "gold reserves" - the ambassador to Hungary. Still - the Secretary of State of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. It lasted long while personally I wasn't called by Leonid Kuchma. Speaks: "You know, here so it turned out. Tell that you want, what your conditions. If you want, I won't remove you, but also to work, you know, you will be between two fires". That is there was purely human conversation. Eventually, suggested to head the State Committee for nationalities and migration.
- Today you have not cloudless relations and with the SBU management.On the one hand, you initiate fight against corruption, with another - in your address any charges of corruption sound. What it for complaints of public organizations from Chernovtsy and Mukachevo about which the deputy head of Security service Tibery Durdinets spoke?
- There were no complaints. There was a falsification of complaints by the staff of SBU. And they to me don't allow to look at that they forged. But I in court provided the documents confirming that people from the specified organizations didn't write anything to my address.
It was calculated on impunity. You know, these are methods of KGB of the USSR. Told that you are a fool - everything, the person bent the head and reconciled: yes, I am a fool, the corrupt official, someone else. Or starts looking for approaches: oh, it isn't necessary, children, I good, etc.
- And what for the protocol on the corruption, allegedly made on you?
- And the protocol wasn't. This is Nalivaychenko (the acting head of SBU,-) I told an edition that on me the protocol on corruption is made. Then I gave the letter of inquiry, and he answered me that the protocol on corruption on me wasn't formed. At us as it is accepted: sling mud to all Ukraine, and apologize in private. I appealed to court - let will find out.
- I counted three claims in which you for the caused damage demand from Nalivaychenko twice 200 thousand UAH and from Durdints - 150 thousand UAH. Money considerable. In case of a prize as dispose?
- If to be exact, as a whole I against SBU submitted five claims in which total amount of the damage caused to me about one million hryvnias (about 50 thousand UAH of duty is declared paid - 5% of the declared sum). As speak, not only it is necessary to be responsible for a market, but also to pay. And I will dispose of money simply - I will let on charity. I a sort from Bukovina. I will buy local schools computer classes. Besides, school buses are necessary.
- The conflict to SBU, personally with Durdints (round his appointment as the President in October 2007-го the deputy head of SBU - the chief of Head department on fight against corruption and the organized crime) is is connected with opposition with Balogoy?
- It not conflict. We showed to society that the President of Ukraine can't spit on the Law even. It is obvious that he didn't know Durdints, and now doesn't know. That's not the point.It is written in the law that at first candidate coordination in Committee of the Verkhovna Rada on fight against the organized crime and corruption, and then - the Decree of the President has to take place. Coordination wasn't. We wrote to the Secretariat of the head of state, to the State Office of Public Prosecutor: bring into accord. Silence.
- And there were other claims to Durdintsu, or revolted only the fact of violation of procedure?
- All had a claim - it doesn't go on Committee meetings, it never there was. It thus that is responsible for shots. He considers that it is Victor Ivanovich (Baloga, - to an edition) it delivered, and on all the others sneezed.
In general, it wasn't necessary to inflate this scandal. Here the President, Baloga, Durdinets, lost SBU. Well were mistaken, happens. Quickly would translate it simply in deputies on which coordination isn't required, or came with materials: let's coordinate. So not... And people gathered in Committee of not really shy ten. All subscribed under the statement of claim is from the chairman of Committee to all deputies. I represented interests in court because not all have experience of the defender. In January in Appellate administrative court of Kiev the case us was carried. In February I decided to discharge Durdints from a position of the deputy head of SBU District administrative court of Kiev - for consideration of the administrative claim.
- Question of other deputy head of SBU. How adequately in the professional plan Valery Khoroshkovsky's appointment how you estimate?
- Very positively (interview took place on the eve of events in "Neftegaz of Ukraine", - an edition). In what today lack of Security service? There was an outflow of clever people. You understand, mind gives mother. If it didn't give - neither the higher school of KGB, nor SBU academy won't add. Probably, Khoroshkovsky will manage to tighten with himself people who are on friendly terms with the head, at memory.
- You are inclined to perceive this appointment in pure form: the person simply appeared on the place?
- For Khoroshkovsky of anything from Security service, as well as from customs, it isn't necessary. He is very rich person. It isn't necessary to it neither ten thousand dollars, nor hundred, I think, as one million isn't necessary to it. It arrived to SBU on "Maybakhe", on it from there and will leave. Here if the person arrived on "Zaporozhets", and leaves on "Maybakhe" is a question. At us why - that are afraid of rich people in any structures.
When it appointed in customs, me some customs officers - I sometimes home go by border with Romania - asked: for that to wait? I'm saying: oh, children, you got used that every month collected and carried upward, and well lived. This won't take anything from you, but it so will make, as you won't earn a horse-radish.
- In your opinion, who lobbied Khoroshkovsky's appointment?
- I don't think that it was from Victor Ivanovich's blessing. He doesn't love clever people, very much doesn't love, he simply doesn't transfer them. Khoroshkovsky - the only person who, I think, has a direct exit to the President, the others had an exit only on Balogu, and even on Igor Pukshin (the Deputy head of the Secretariat of President, - an edition), not above.
- It has chances to become the head of SBU? According to the same scheme "acting as", we will tell.
- I consider if headed - it would be good. Once it is necessary that someone clever directed intelligence services. But the scheme with the deputy - doubtful, and the person will feel "not in the trough".
- What destiny waits for Nalivaychenko? The SBU management in the status of the deputy will end sooner or later especially as in the Verkhovna Rada at it there are a lot of opponents.
- It seems to me that he is the brought-down pilot. Unless still where - that will manage to be attached by the ambassador at board Yushchenko. And if isn't in time and will finish in Service to presidential election, will leave, as Drizhchany, Smeshko (ex-heads of SBU, - an edition), in a non-existence.
- You consider as the faithful companion of the leader of "National self-defense" Yury Lutsenko. Your appointments after "orange revolution" were lobbied by it?
- In 2005 - to Lutsenko's which has headed the Ministry of Internal Affairs the m, someone told about my existence (I didn't know it earlier, only I saw on TV: all these actions, "Ukraine without Kuchma", these fights, the third - the tenth). Deputies were necessary to it, all former dismissed after revolution. The governor of the Luhansk region I was recommended by Roman Bessmertny, he knew me long ago. Oleg Rybachuk recommended for the permanent representative of the President. In deputy heads of SBU … I wouldn't want to develop this subject. Yushchenko had others a vision of my stay in Security service. Here Victor Ivanovich came and leveled to the simple deputy. It was necessary to me on the same day when declared the Decree appointment as the simple deputy, to refuse...
After SBU stayed at home and even, was already, I found work. And here dismissed parliament. I was invited by Lutsenko and Zhvaniya, ask: what you do? I'm saying: anything, I graze cows. Suggested to work at elections in the Crimea, in Lugansk, in Dnepropetrovsk, in east areas. I it is honest, honestly I fulfilled. So as already I noted: I am obliged by a place in parliament to only two people. They will tell tomorrow that I am not necessary to them, I will take away the things from this office and I will leave. But while anybody such didn't tell anything. On the contrary, mister Zhvaniya still provided me deputy office in the office building.
In a word, I came from the street and I behave respectively. As children come to school: one - from intelligent families, others - from the street. The difference is? Though, I consider that as for the "street" deputy I behave very decently.
- If to speak about Internal troops of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine: all of them - armies of the Ministry of Internal Affairs or army of the President, the Secretariat of the President?. During each serious aggravation of a political situation charges sound that the head of state is ready to use fighters of Centuries
- Yury Vitalyevich (Lutsenko, - an edition), though has a fighting spirit, in life - very gentle and trustful person. Personally I to the commander of Internal troops To Alexander Kikhtenko I don't trust. He here, in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, sings one, sits on a sofa in the Secretariat of the President - sings another. If there are mass excitements, consider, it won't support the people. Also won't support the Minister. He will get up on the Secretariat party, on the party Geletey (the head of department of state protection of Ukraine, - an edition), in one stream with Balogoy. I don't trust it, but the Minister trusts. Life will show.
- Tell, and you agree with Lutsenko's initiative to make available guns for firing by rubber charges? Especially now, in the conditions of an economic crisis, splash in street crime about which the Minister spoke, and depressive moods.
- In it I disagree with mister Lutsenko completely. The matter is that the Ministry of Internal Affairs - huge department, and from time immemorial here is such unwritten traditions... When the Minister asks "cows fly? ", deputies speak "yes, but is very low". I think, this is Lutsenko lined, and jumped aside in bushes.
- So from where the initiative proceed could? And what motives?
- From one of deputy ministers.I don't know, what motives. But, in - the first, aren't present legislative base. In - the second, we have the general level of culture (and legal) - any. Besides, people now angry, dissatisfied, in a depression. In a word, the initiative won't pass in parliament. Even if it will collect 226 votes, it is vetoed by the President.
- Question of private life: crisis as - that concerned you? The credits on hands are? In what you store savings?
- I wouldn't tell that concerned. I had only one credit - for the ATV paid since 2006, in the Crimea took. I remember, I came to bank and it was terrified: I paid, I paid, and it appeared, a half more has to. I laid out the remained 50 thousand and I told: any more I don't want to contact the credits.
However, I as - that put 10 thousand euros for the deposit and presented to two granddaughters (with cards that could remove percent). Recently I read - in that bank temporary administration entered. I don't know, than will end. And simply I spend generally earned money.
- Perhaps on something already it was necessary to save. Where had a rest earlier where you will be now?
- I have traditionally a rest in the Carpathians. And, it is possible to tell, I invest in sports. For crisis it was prepared completely. I have ATV, a snowmobile, the mountain bicycle. Here still приценяюсь: I want to buy the boat. If I learn to be alloyed across Cheremosh is in general there will be a limit. If I don't break into pleasure to the Secretariat