Catholic church in Nikolaev погрузла in serious problems which demand immediate intervention of the highest church ranks.
We already wrote about the conflict of regional society of the Poles which head isElizabeth Selyanskaya, with a church. Four years ago, having become for the second time the prior of Rome - Catholic church in Nikolaev, the fatherYaroslav GizhitskyI started actively trying to separate society of Poles as the secular organization from a church. A year later Elizabeth Selyanskaya brought up this question in a narrow circle of Catholics, but the situation became aggravated even more. Yaroslav Gizhitsky didn't want that Poles occupied the room in which now there is a museum of local lore and which according to documents belongs to a church.
Practically all people who made comments on the created situation for "Nikvestya", spoke about the personal conflict between Elizabeth Selyanskaya and Yaroslav Gizhitsky. And practically all spoke out in defense of the priest.
In the first comment the head of society of Poles told that wouldn't like to tell in detail, which immoral acts are made by the prior of a church. Now, when about the conflict learned a large number of people, and they are negatively adjusted in relation to it, Elizabeth Selyanskaya decided to slightly open a curtain, and told in more detail about the conflict reasons.
- First of all, I don't agree with in what all tried to convince you - of existence of the personal conflict, - Elizabeth Selyanskaya told in interview "Nikvestyam". - The personal conflict here any isn't present. I will show documents which confirm it. In the published material the head of department of religion questions Alexander Kostashenko claimed that it is the personal conflict, but, besides, it everything only according to Yaroslav Gizhitsky. Because he never never talked to me.
- That is, it has a unilateral position?
- Yes. It is clear that it works with the religious organizations, and we - the organization secular. We cooperate with administration and with department of affairs of nationalities and religion. The chief of this department Elena Ivashko - the person new. Probably, she up to the end doesn't know how this conflict began.And the second moment about which I wanted to tell, concerns one of comments on a site. The reader under a nickname "Yulia" wrote about an ekskomunik.
Excerpt from the comment:
Catholic priests - the people who are strictly submitting to church hierarchy, and only they have the right to resolve issues of relationship. That, by the way also it was made the bishop concerning Elizabeth Gaysovna as parishioners of Catholic arrival - at us it is called ekskomuniky.
Ekskomunika- excommunication from church.
For an example
From the Catechism of Catholic church, article fifth, fifth precept:
"Formal partnership in abortion represents heavy fault. The church applies initial punishment of an excommunication to this crime against human life. "The one who makes abortion if the objectives are achieved, is subject to an excommunication (ex-communication) of latae sententiae (connecting force of the law)", "already from - for the fact of commission of crime", according to the conditions provided by the Law. The church doesn't intend to narrow mercy area thus. It points to weight of the committed crime and the irreparable injury caused innocently to the killed, his parents and all society".
Mine an ekskomunik it was declared by the priest a year ago in a church from an ambon. If to draw an analogy to orthodox church, an ekskomunik is as an anathema, but is softer. The bishop Bronislav Bernatsky can confirm that actually ekskomunik concerning me wasn't.
Procedure ekskomunik bureaucratic and quite long. It becomes on the basis of discussions and resolutions for very grave sins. But all Christian religions meet that if to confess, God forgives all sins. Therefore the person with any sins can be forgiven.
About that to me declared to an ekskomunik, I learned from parishioners of a church, and right there called in the episcopate. I couldn't talk to the priest because he was in Poland at once. It is one more argument of my suspicions that washing an ekskomunik - a lie because only the bishop can impose it. And in comments it is written that the bishop decided. And the bishop then wasn't in Ukraine.
- You were told, for what imposed to an ekskomunik?
- For bad behavior.
- Not for something it is concrete, and generally?
- Yes, generally. It was declared on Sunday on all services, on a big holiday. And Christ's holiday - the Tsar when all sins say goodbye and is called for love for the neighbor. After that to me people who began to go recently to a church came and yet weren't members of society of Poles. They said: "We want to understand. We heard one party, now we want to hear other party". And they then said that the events in a church were similar to party meeting in the worst traditions.
- That is, what imposed on you to an ekskomunik, you learned already through the "tenth" hands?
- Yes. Usually the service goes in the morning, during the lunchtime and in the evening. I very seldom went on morning service, and on it and was declared an ekskomunik.
- Whether the priest has to inform on whom imposes to an ekskomunik?
- Ekskomunika is imposed only by the bishop, and previously the person is notified on it. Then all this information is dispatched on churches of Ukraine. Because the person on whom imposed to an ekskomunik, can arrive to other city. Priests are told that there is such person, be vigilant.
And that concerning me declared to an ekskomunik is there was simply spontaneous, emotional expression of feelings. And after that it was hung up the announcement in a church.
Here it is written: "sheets for the signature are on a plebaniye". On a plebaniye is means at the priest. That is the priest collected signatures.
- Then, when the bishop returned from Poland, you talked to him?
- I tried to talk to it. It made me an appointment. I don't know how this situation was informed from the priest to the bishop because the bishop arrived even here, to Nikolaev. I wanted to talk to it alone because ekskomunik is a personal sacrament, it has to concern only one person.
It is possible to give an everyday example - the husband and the wife divorced, and the man lives with other woman. In a social life this normal phenomenon. But such people aren't given a participle. And that, nobody speaks about them aloud. And the priest doesn't point a finger at him. Parishioners see that it doesn't go to a participle, but you never know, for what reasons. This very personal and individual. And about such people at all don't say that at them is an ekskomunik and that they have no right to accept a participle. Though if there takes place any bureaucratic procedure, it is possible.
When there arrived the bishop, called general meeting, very short - was minutes 20-25 prior to the beginning of service. The bishop sat silently. And the father Yaroslav sat silently. Also allowed all people to express - to throw into me a stone. To state that correctly made that carried out this to an ekskomunik. And when I told the bishop that came here not behind it that I came, first of all, to talk to him alone, and wanted to talk about the an ekskomunik, he so waved a hand: "Well you worry? Ekskomuniki wasn't". I speak and, I know that wasn't ekskomunik. But people of it don't know. People need to be risen and told again that it was the lie, it was simply rough lie from the priest that wasn't ekskomunik that people calmed down.
- They told it?
- No, didn't tell. They left on Saturday, and on Sunday there was a big celebration - received a curacy the young man who was disaccustomed in seminary. I was told that is bad to do such announcement therefore next Sunday there will be such announcement in such solemn time. But a year I passed, this announcement wasn't. And now some priests try to conduct with me negotiations. Recently I was in Kherson in a church. And there the priest too tried to talk to me and told: "Well you know that wasn't ekskomunik". I too told it, I know that, but nobody knows from people. Even those who wrote comments on a site, they are deeply sure of it, at them in heart hatred and rage is seeded. People, without knowing a problem essence, consider that everything is correctly made that I am such swine, and it is necessary.
Though procedure ekskomunik is applied in exceptional cases, but anybody doesn't explain it to people and nobody says that is a lie and that the priest told a lie.
Close people speak to me: "Don't worry from - for it. It is a sin of the priest". At what it is very great sin - to tell such things.
- Priests it is aware of that ekskomunik there was no everything also that occurred, it is unfair. Whether there was at them any meeting, discussion of this problem?
- I don't know. I am a person secular, I there don't interfere. I didn't influence in any way it, I can't affect and, generally - that, I don't want to affect. I only can observe from the party and analyze these acts.
In Nikolaev there came the high church authorities from Poland. Three days they conducted negotiations with me and the father Yaroslav.They didn't want that society of Poles moved, persuaded to remain (by this time we already found the room for society by means of the mayor Chaika). They finished me, I agreed to make any concessions, any negotiations. But they didn't finish the father Yaroslav.
I don't demand apologies for this to an ekskomunik. I wanted only one - that told people. Because word of the priest more powerfully, than word of the simple person.
- Whether you cooperated with the father Yaroslav during his first cadence?
- No. Me chose as the chairman how there arrived the priest Richard (after the first cadence of the father Yaroslav the prior of a church there was a father Richard, after it - again the father Yaroslav -авт. )
The priest of many convinced that the reason of the personal relations. But that it not the personal relations, it was clear from the very beginning. I couldn't understand in the beginning why so occurs.
At the Soviet power churches were forbidden. Then, when allowed churches to revive, and communities started arising, in all cities Poles were a basis of a Catholic bulk. It is clear because Poles - Catholics and where them was much, they kept the belief. In all cities so it developed that at churches the Polish societies were organized. And very many first Catholic priests were from Poland.
Kostashenko correctly says that Catholicism is the world religion, without nationality.
When arrivals including in Nikolaev, in Rome - Catholic churches began to come all people started developing. Including came Greco - Catholics because it was more difficult for them to rise. Also people of other nationalities began to come to a church. It occurred in all churches in Ukraine.
I communicate with chairmen of the Polish societies in different regions of Ukraine. All of them too began to say that they had problems with a church.
- Approximately at the same time?
- Yes. I at first didn't want to devote local authorities because all - I didn't want to wash the dirty linen in public in this situation. Me reproach that I didn't bring a problem to the attention of members of society. Yes, I didn't lead up because such problems can't be taken out, is it will be simple dirt. But I went to Poland, talked to the church authorities, to chairmen of public organizations of higher, not local, level. All began to encourage me, spoke:"Don't worry, it not only your problem, is a problem of all Ukraine".
- Perhaps, it is such policy of church - to separate public organizations from temples?
- Yes, it is policy of church. So I was told in public organizations. In the beginning Poles were organized to become independent, organize arrivals. And now, when people and other nationalities, that, naturally came, the situation changed. Even in our arrival there were such conversations: "And why the service is conducted in Polish? It is necessary to me in Russian".
- But after all the service is conducted in different languages …
- Yes, it is correct. But all the same, here such household conversations are.
Therefore when the church already gathered forces, began to speak about separating the secular organizations from a church, and the secular organizations are the Polish societies.
That is, it not personal conflict. If it was the personal conflict, the priest would come to me something told, and so he is expelled all society. Because it is the secular organization.
I several times asked where will put things of the Polish society which are in premises of museum of local lore. After all also the Kotwica newspaper editorial office with all equipment, and the Polish class there settled down. The prior answered me: "I will find where, or in general I will throw out on the street".
Here the receipt which the previous prior, the father Richard gave me.
And the father Yaroslav told that doesn't bear responsibility for things. I told that I will cause in that case militia.
The announcement which was placed in a church
I don't agree that we apply for the room. We don't apply for the room. And never applied. I found archival documents in which it is specified that else before revolution society of Poles allocated Rome - Catholic church of 4000 rubles for construction in the yard of church of this new room for initial one-cool school. The bishop issued to society the certificate that society has the right to use the room free of charge. But we aren't assignees of that Polish society therefore we can't apply for the room.
But, on the other hand, this room had no right to transfer to a church. Because according to the Decree of the President and Cabinet resolutions, the religious organizations had to transfer only cult constructions. And the building of the museum is not cult construction.
As to a church couldn't transfer this room, society of Poles was connected. I have no originals of those letters which we wrote, but they are in a church, and is in administration, and also at the mayor. All members of society of Poles signed the petition for that this building told to a church to that there will be as well the center of the Polish culture.
Moreover, there is a contract between the Nikolaev area and West - the Pomor voivodeship. Delegations which came from West - the Pomor voivodeship at level a marshalka and voivodes (on - to ours it is the mayor and the governor), always came to society of Poles and always before the arrival conducted negotiations with the Nikolaev administration on transfer of the building of museum of local lore there was a place for the Polish society. And thanks to them this building was transferred.
Certainly, it would be desirable to have this room for occupations, for meetings.
But when there was a question of our eviction as secular organization, it turned out so that us simply used. Society of Poles doesn't appear in all official documents anywhere.
- You don't apply for the room …
- No. I simply tell story as it was. It was earlier the oral arrangement about which Yury Korab speaks. When me elected the chairman, I parted very rough activities for this question. I counted that all - priests are people high-moral which keep the word if there are any problems, they try to solve them. Therefore I had at all no thought that just like that will throw out us, will drill locks. Drilling of locks are there were extreme methods. Before changed locks, disconnected light, and it always occurred before any action. And I had to settle these questions through the bishop, through the consul. I called there, said that to us disconnected light and changed locks.
Moreover, I to Poland tried to call, to higher administration. Generally, we laughed that to hold any events, I have to resolve these issues at the international level. These questions were settled, spoke, so it is impossible, it is bad. To us changed locks back, turned on the light.
- Whether there are at you requirements or wishes to the priest?
- Any requirements, any wishes. At you it was written that Elena Ivashko suggests to sit down at a negotiating table. I already sat at a negotiating table right at the beginning.People who wanted to settle the conflict, - not the Nikolaev level, and higher, - they refused this invention. Though I told at once that I will make any concessions, any compromises. Even there was such situation that I twice at meeting said that I resign from authority of the chairman and is ready to submit the cases to other chairman who, probably, will have other relations with the priest if he so claims that is our personal relations. But at meetings always to me it refused, said that "we chose you - work". Even those people who criticized my position in relation to a church, didn't want to take my place.
I worked at this position of 8 years (since 2001). This position didn't give anything to me, except problems.
- You now go to a church?
- In ours - No. I don't go there after ekskomunik. When I happen in other cities, I go there to a church. Often happen in the Kherson church. And in the Nikolaev church, in my opinion, the immoral priest who simply impudently deceives people.
- Yury Korab said that you discussed with him emergence of one more society - society of the Polish culture "Polonium a semper фиделис" which head it is.
- When I met Yura, I didn't know that he already registered this society. As far as I understood, it registered in the beginning the organization, and then at meeting already presented all with a fait accompli. I began to call up to it as soon as learned that there was a meeting.
- That is, Yury Korab held meeting of Poles?
- No. He claims that it was meeting for all comers.
- In a church?
- Yes. Thus the priest expels us as the secular organization. But after all Yury Korab's organization - too secular. Nevertheless, it is in the church territory.
In interview Yury Korab told you that I called the organization immoral. But it it generally summarized our conversation. I said to it that it was impossible to do it - to divide Poles. I then offered it, let's call meeting of all Polish society, I will resign. You want, there will be you the chairman if you choose.
- And he is the member of your society?
- No.But besides, this slyness which they preach on general public that this open society for all - and for Poles, and not for Poles, and they will extend the Polish culture. We had too a society open. Moreover, me criticized for that we accept in society of people who have no confirmation of the Polish origin. But after all often Poles have no confirmation of the nationality, especially immigrants. We rejected nobody, at all Poles. We have very big library. They came to take books, to watch the movie, to learn how the Polish traditions are celebrated, or to listen to lecture about stories of Poland. We for anybody didn't close a door. My argument was such that documents to examine the Polish culture aren't necessary. Documents are necessary if the person through consulate wants to receive any material benefits, for example, to send the child to study abroad though now this procedure is already simplified. And to read the Polish book or to watch the movie, the Polish documents aren't necessary.
To me reproach that Poles were divided.
I suggested Yury Korab not to separate of what me accuse, and your title including - "Poles were divided". I say that not I them divided it. On the contrary, I didn't want it. I even agreed to resign the authority and to transfer them that only there was the Polish society one.
There is one more reason why Yura decided to become the chairman of society which I while will hold back. On the one hand, it was finished by the priest, with another - his personal motive.
- You say, what the priest persuaded him to create society of the Polish culture, thus, that it forces out your society from a church?
- Yes. The priest Yaroslav deceived the bishop and everywhere now tries to tell that Yury Korab's society is simply Polish circle. And on one actions the priest said that they aren't registered even not. And actually they are registered in justice department, it is full-fledged public organization.
It contradicts the resolution of the bishop. Both the bishop, and the consul of Poland said to me that this order demands to clean the secular organizations from the church territory.
And Yura Korab creates this organization in the church territory. And the priest does all announcements in a church, and speaks:"For all who feels like Poles …"
- That is, if there is an order, the separation of the secular organizations from the temple it is obvious policy of church?
- Yes. On the one hand, the church wants to separate the secular organizations. With another, Yaroslav Gizhitsky belongs to an award of hristusovets (there are various awards which the main mission put any affairs, for example, work with children, the help to patients, scientific activity, publishing, another). And mission of hristusovets is a work with Poles. Mission of priests who leave this award - if they get to other country, have to help Poles surely. That is, to work with the Polish societies, to hold services in Polish as - that to support "polskost".
All priests who worked in Nikolaev, cooperated with the Polish society. It was to me, and during me because we well worked with the previous priest. We held many events in common, after all the Polish national traditions are closely connected with religion. For example, we held a concert of Christmas carols in a church. Or concert of classical Polish music. Tools best of all sound in a church.
- Other members of society had problems with the priest?
- Yes, were. They had no Ekskomuniki, but there was moral pressure. Anywhere it is impossible neither to complain, nor to file a lawsuit, to tell anybody. I, for example, wouldn't believe earlier if I was told that the priest tells such things. The priest can't such speak. While itself I didn't face it. Perhaps, I played a role also personal hostility of the prior to me. There were cases when I appeared the involuntary witness of his obscene behavior though I didn't speak to anybody about it and won't tell.
If to compare number of parishioners on service in a church of years five years ago and now is very big difference.
- That is, now parishioners became much less?
- It is much less. For comparison, earlier on usual service on Sunday there were more than 200 people. All benches were occupied also people stood - there was no place. And now even on big holidays - 50 people. And those people who condemned me, they say now that "we didn't know". When they, roughly speaking, were hit on the head, began to argue on - to another. About one and a half years ago to Nikolaev there arrived the Catholic priest and started building a church. And very many people simply passed to it.And even what very far to go - from Leskov, Salt, from the Watering place. The new church will be under construction in October. On a central square bought the old house, and in the yard already laid the foundation. There the priest - the priest Heinrich.
For the reference:
In the Nikolaev area about 1500 Poles, in the city of Nikolaev - more than 700 are. Members of regional society of Poles led by Elizabeth Selyanskaya are about 200 people. In the society of the Polish culture led by Yury Korab - 14 people.
Between the Nikolaev Poles there was a serious split. The part from them accuses the priests of unworthy behavior
New data: view of the Catholic of the conflict between society of Poles and the Nikolaev church