Valery Pustovoytenko: "Yushchenko can go, can not go on elections, but he has no chances"

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"Crime. Is NOT PRESENT" offers the readers of interview to our fellow countryman ex-the prime minister - the minister Valery Pustovoytenko.

When in December, 1999 the prime minister - the minister of Ukraine became Victor Yushchenko, him and the Cabinet which he headed, called "reformers".

Then Yushchenko really worked well much. However, his predecessor on a government post of the head Valery Pustovoytenko considers that a merit it not only and not so much Yushchenko, as the previous governments which have laid the foundation for economic growth.

Now the ex-the head of NDP Pustovoytenko, it seems, also doesn't go in for active policy, but just it seems. He observes, makes comments, advises, creates public associations to what he is the big expert. Certainly, makes some plans and concerning presidential election, but doesn't hurry to share them yet.

"Editor-in-chief" spoke with Valery Pavlovich practically at the time of vote for government resignation when results were still unknown, but are quite predicted.

"Together with presidential election it is necessary to carry out parliamentary early"

Valery Pavlovich, here you observed how the Verkhovna Rada dismissed the government, and with a big guarantee that it doesn't happen though, probably, for resignation of the government and there were certain objective reasons. How you, the former prime minister - the minister, estimate a present situation - and concerning Cabinet activity, and concerning the requirement about its report?

Today I come to a conclusion that Ukraine someone specially tries to destroy in general as the state! Because we feel pressure as from the outside - from the countries of the European Union and Russia, and from within as though someone very sophisticated scoffs at the state. By the way, the situation which has arisen at the Secretariat of the President with the government, influences both on internal, and foreign policy. On the external direction now practically anybody with Ukraine isn't considered, on internal too more than it is enough problems.

As for Yulia Timoshenko's performance on the government report in parliament, that, I consider, not everything is sincerely told up to the end - as representatives of one branch of the power - legislative, and representatives of other branch of the power - executive. Both those it is insincere, and others... I here watched a press - conference and Roman Bezsmertny (the Deputy head of the Secretariat of President on regional issues. -Edition) and Victor Bondarya (head Dnepropetrovskoy YEAH, party member "The uniform center".-Edition) and Anatoly Bliznuk (head Donetskoy YEAH, party member of regions. -Red. )... Also I drew for myself the following conclusion: today anyway it is impossible to dismiss anybody!

Why? For example, in Party of Regions so don't consider and in the Secretariat of the President too...

It is obvious that there is a preparation for presidential election. But I all - hold the opinion that together with presidential election it is necessary to carry out the parliamentary early! Because the Verkhovna Rada can't remain inactive - and it now inactive, there contrast of poles 50/50, and part of deputies are unsteady that in one, in other party!. Therefore after presidential elections the Cabinet - be it present or new - won't recognize.

And I defend a position that together with the newly elected president has to be and the newly elected Verkhovna Rada which, whenever possible, will create the pro-presidential majority and will create the new government which will correspond to this coalition. That is the power has to assume full responsibility!

That in the economic plan occurs today at first in parliament, and then and in the government, I consider simply as a sabbath. In my opinion, if the opposition was strong, after performance the prime minister - the minister Tymoshenko had to act the leader of opposition Victor Yanukovych who heads shadow cabinet of Ministers, and to offer the anti-recessionary program, new steps for an exit of Ukraine from an economic crisis. Unfortunately, such steps aren't present, and performances on this occasion weren't. Weakness of opposition gives the chance both a president's team, and governmental to behave as they will wish...

Paradox in that, on the one hand, even nonspecialists understand that economic indicators which are called by Yulia Timoshenko, are far from reality.On the other hand, and not supporters of its government - for example, the same group "For Ukraine! ", costs on a position that it is impossible to dismiss the government. And the President declares that won't allow the government to avoid responsibility...

You understand, it is necessary to strengthen public control over power and government activity, and to strengthen an opposition role in society...

And how to make it, on - to yours? Because it is enough public organizations and associations, but their position is, seemingly, absolutely uninteresting the authorities...

First of all, political parties which aren't included today into the Verkhovna Rada have to become more active. As both presidential, and parliamentary elections are again reduced to three - four political forces having chances to take place, - and all! And it is absolutely wrong! I know many people who would like to work in the power and understand system of state bodies, economy, finance, but to them, owing to some political factors, the way there is ordered!

You have a wide experience in the organization of association of public structures - and "Zlagoda" of the end 90-x, and the For Uniform Ukraine block on elections 2002-го, and GO "Together for the sake of the Future" at presidential election in 2004 - m. Such broad associations in general are now possible, and under whom?

I think that actually isn't present. Here Seminozhenko created "The Ukrainian forum" which authoritative people - both Anatoly Zlenko, and Leonid Kuchma, both Leonid Kravchuk, and diplomats, and economists, and everything who want to work for the state enter... But, probably, society has today no need to hear these people - and the power doesn't want to hear them first of all!.

Or here we created the Sanhedrim in which Leonid Kravchuk presides, - we write letters, addresses to the President, but them, apparently, nobody reads... And Leonid Makarovich's all attempts to inform our opinion to the President come to nothing... In general, both earlier, and now of influential social movements are afraid...

Considering such relation of the power to similar educations, they turned long ago into a transcendental object, isn't it?

Why? They can be reanimated. There are addresses to me personally a number enough serious people to whom these projects are pleasant and which insist on creating such directions and further.I won't declassify, as they say, yet as they will be called, but it will be blocks with which it is possible to go and on presidential election, and on future parliamentary, - ideas are, whether but I don't know, however, it will be possible to realize them.

"In the second round of presidential election there are Tymoshenko and Yanukovych"

That is at presidential election if I correctly understand, you intend to support a certain personality, and you will go on the parliamentary with any political force?

No, I think that it is possible to go and with the offer on presidential election, and to prepare for participation in the parliamentary. To go on presidential election very simply: pledge in five hundred thousand hryvnias, five hundred thousand signatures from seventeen regions, also went to elections!

But same it is frivolous!.

Yes, it is frivolous. Because the rating is or not? At us now everything is reduced to what? Tymoshenko, Yanukovych and Simonenko. Three candidates, aren't present other candidates...

Wait, what Simonenko?

Well, what? Pyotr... I speak about those who will go. Well, who will really apply today for a post of the president …

Thus you didn't call, for example, a surname of the incumbent president Victor Yushchenko or a surname of one more potential candidate whom you well know and which, speak, and to you proposed marriage about cooperation...

You mean Yatsenyuk?

Yes.

I and knew that you will tell about Yatsenyuk!.

Well, Yushchenko can go, can not go, but he has no chances: for it it is better to finish adequately the term on a post of the President, having directed efforts to consolidation of work of executive authorities both in the center, and on places, and to reject thoughts concerning elections. This its right to go or not to go on elections, but I think if defeat is very obvious, it all - won't go - if he really understands it.

And Yatsenyuk?

Well, it we had in Ukraine absolutely new clan... There was time when the clan created Lazarenko, then there was a Donetsk clan, then the Kharkov group which didn't become stronger in the Verkhovna Rada... And today there was a new group - Firtash and others, including Yatsenyuk. It is new group which everywhere shows today Yatsenyuk.It young, interesting, and recently there was a message - if am not mistaken, on "Editor-in-chief" - that he is soon thirty five years old and he can be candidate for president...

Well, Firtash has at the moment very difficult situation actually, including in Party of Regions. He didn't achieve government creation led by Yury Boyko, through his fault PR got mixed up in nonwinning now fight on government resignation. He very much fights for itself(himself), using the financial resources, the Secretariat of the President, PR fraction, including Yatsenyuk. And to win this fight of chances at it less. Whether political life such "the kinder - a surprise" how Yatsenyuk if Firtash loses and it will destroy the - the same Akhmetov, for example will end too quickly? Because in itself "The front of changes" Yatsenyuka - it isn't very serious yet...

How at us are created financially - economic clans? The same people conduct to the power of different people, but the system everywhere is absolutely identical. Well, there was to himself Firtash, him wasn't audible anywhere, he didn't shine anywhere earlier, received many enterprises in the territory of Ukraine and even signed with "Gazprom" the agreement on supply of gas to Ukraine fifty on fifty... I think with whom got and just like that such agreement never would sign! Here also it is necessary to look for the reason of its influence in it is why it with it signed who favored it as this "Rosukrenergo" was created and than all this will end...

And what here to look for? It is known that everything occurred at the highest level. Actually, and now the highest level of patronage remains...

Yes, but this scheme of supply of gas was created to Yushchenko. It is known who did it who helped who stood behind them also the other. This system very difficult, but future financially - economic plans all the same isn't present.

I think that all - we have to build civil society, we have to have political parties which would be all - rather conscious, and in society to lift level of moral of our citizens and a politicum. It is such rhetorical question.

But whileagain - there will be a fight of clans, there will be a fight of personal ambitions, and it is obvious - we observe it every day...

Sure: one power - Yushchenko, Tymoshenko, Yatsenyuk came, and led Ukraine to financial and political crisis, as? Absolutely! Now they ran up in any measure.Now Yatsenyuk is a little bit discharged of them, Tymoshenko and Yushchenko too dispersed. At everyone plans for the upcoming presidential election - personal plans or plans of those groups which they submit. Here they also will fight with each other.

Is also Yanukovych. And, unfortunately, anyway, everything is reduced to one: I think, in the second round of presidential election there are Tymoshenko and Yanukovych, and between them the issue will be resolved.

Why Yulia Vladimirovna so holds a post the prime minister - the minister? Because if she was today the People's Deputy, she absolutely quietly would leave a premier chair, would come to parliament, and would look more strongly, than she looks now. At present it has freight, absolute freight of that on it hangs, - all economy. And a lack of the government of Tymoshenko - his nonprofessionalism. Nobody goes in for power, and it is the basis of the economy! Too nobody is engaged in the industry! Therefore, I think, to it it is urgent, tomorrow it is necessary to reformat the Cabinet: to change, fix some ministers vice-the prime minister - ministers of power, of the industry who will coordinate, first of all, internal economy.

"Romanians all life, how many they exist, зарятся on our lands, to Bessarabia! "

You think, rotation will concern economic block of the government, that is BYuT quota?Because,for example, the same group "For Ukraine" warns, will start what changing just humanists, that is NUNS quota, and declared that won't vote for resignation or appointment of certain ministers whoever they were but only for full resignation of the government...

Well, where - that is disagreements. In the government today the defined people are responsible for the humanitarian sphere, and it is correct - vice-the prime minister who is responsible for the humanitarian sphere, has to be. But tell, what does today vice-the prime minister Nemyrya? It does nothing!

Very much even does - is engaged in Yulia Timoshenko's external relations...

Well, I don't know that it does - didn't hear and I don't want to know. But that happened to the decision of the Hague court on the island Snake, testifies that vice-the prime minister Nemyrya is engaged in public affairs insufficiently! Certainly, the question on Snake still needs to be studied, but as on me, it looks so that Europe again "threw" us, and ourselves are guilty.There the joint venture on gas production which will be transported to Europe will be created. With us it is very difficult to create such joint venture because we have no political stability, and with Romanians it is possible.

Still in the middle of 90-x, being the Minister of Transport, I was in Rotterdam where showed the movie about a transport corridor across Danube. It was obvious that Romanians oppose Ukraine. They all life, how many they exist, зарятся on our lands, to Bessarabia! And so, showed this movie about transportation across Danube, and Ukraine there isn't mentioned at all! I got up and I speak: "Dear, forgive, and where Ukraine? " They became puzzled: "Yes isn't present, no, think nothing". But they showed Danube only on the territory, our part of Danube there wasn't - mouths Fast, anything is absolute! That is with us don't reckon - both then, and now!.

I can't but ask about precedent in your stay the prime minister - the minister - when Moldova was given two villages, having practically made it the sea state, in exchange on a piece of the road to Odessa. And now Moldova together with Azerbaijan builds the petroterminal which is the competitor to our enterprises in this former Ukrainian territory. Why it was necessary to do it?

Then two positions gave us. It is the railroad which passed through the territory of Moldova, and Moldova there constantly to us I put barriers. And the second is a part of the road Odessa - Izmail. But, that you knew, the Moldova terminal started building in the territory, but it doesn't work. Therefore it while unpromising question. And we resolved the issues, especially on the railroads.

And they resolved an outlet to the sea issue! And you want to tell, what this petroterminal all the same would be - they would receive these territories or not?

Yes, it all the same would be, they built it in the territory. If they built port, would have also the status of the sea state, and so...

Well, can also will construct. You don't consider, what these cases - from Palankaya and Snake, in any degree are identical meaning that Ukraine didn't defend the interests?

No that you such speak! Here even comparison can't be! Any "the Moldavian history" isn't present because still that port doesn't work for them! And that Snake we lost the island that at us selected a piece of a shelf of the Black Sea, I consider, very seriously.

When the prime minister - the minister of the Crimea was Franchuk, he very seriously was engaged in a shelf of the Black Sea - just in this part, where the island Snake. We then with English firm Shell agreed that they will come to work, will create with us joint venture. I there left, we looked, were on towers completely to close a gas problem across the Crimea, and further it to sell to someone... But already how many years passed, and so it all and remained...

Therefore to compare these cases anyway it is impossible! Today Romanians will create joint venture with the countries of the European Union and will extract gas on a shelf, it is unambiguous. And they will make it before us! Similar situation at us with Russia with which we too can't divide border across the Black Sea! We need to create immediately joint venture and to extract gas - 50/50 or how many it will be!. Such political issues need to be resolved urgently, differently we will continue to fight for transit of the Russian gas through Ukraine! Why not to give the chance to lay on the territory of Ukraine one more pipe together with Russia? Our earth, their money, our pipes and so on...

You sounded these ideas to authorities who can make the relevant decisions?

I sounded! And today, I consider, it is very normal idea, very much! We had 32 billion from transit of the Russian gas across the territory of Ukraine! And now we receive money from transit, but at such inflated price we buy gas for own consumption that our economy stops being the profitable! It is necessary to approach from the economic point of view and to do that is favorable to Ukraine, to use its transit opportunities: there will be no transit, so we will lose part of our economy!

Why, for example, the pipe "Odessa — Fords" doesn't work? Because constantly argued, in reversive or in an averse mode it has to work! But what difference? The main thing that it worked, I didn't stand idle! Week there will shake, week in other party - the main thing that it was filled with oil! And oil isn't present! How we from the Caspian Sea will bring oil to Odessa? Yes in any way, and never! In - the second, there also oil in the Caspian Sea isn't present in enough...

"Candidates there will be a person 50, it isn't less. But the main figures there are Yanukovych and Tymoshenko"

Let's return to policy, to presidential election. In a Trinity of leaders you called Simonenko.Why?

Why I called it? Because it has a rating in the respective regions of Ukraine among the relevant group of the population. I think, candidates will be where - that the person fifty not less but the main figures, I consider, there are Yanukovych and Tymoshenko. Probably, and Litvin. Even not probably, and it is exact.

Speak, between Litvin and Tymoshenko arrangements and in respect of presidential election are possible: pier, it remains the prime minister with here such powers and supports him at presidential election. Fantasy, probably, but why you so low estimate Litvin, putting his ambassador Simonenko?

Because in our situation no arrangements have absolutely any validity. Today agreed, and tomorrow dispersed...

Why I so speak about Litvin? Because it at presidential election has no chances. And here the speaker from him could be quite good.

Well, it and now speaker...

Yes, he is a speaker. Also it is its work, in my opinion. And here to pass at presidential election, I consider, it has no chances. It has the electorate, and, I think, he could conclude the corresponding arrangements with someone from those whom I called, that is to help someone from them to become the president. But, on the other hand, the mechanism of transfer of voices of one leader to another actually isn't present.

Early parliamentary elections because the Party of Regions in the person of Sergey Levochkin declares that the decision on addition of mandates is made are how probable...

I don't think that the deputies who have paid money, so simply refused mandates. As they speak: "I not in a year paid, and for five! "... Therefore anybody independently won't put mandates. I at all don't trust in it.

You don't believe in early elections this year?

At present not. Last year and, I acted and said that early elections are necessary. Today they aren't necessary. Tymoshenko has to finish, but presidential and parliamentary elections need to be held at the same time.

Who, in that case, will make this decision?

I think, the parliament and will accept. Or the one who wins elections.

I simply remember 2005 when Yushchenko became a President: now say that its biggest mistake was that it at once didn't dismiss parliament and didn't create the resistant pro-presidential majority.If Tymoshenko, that, quite possibly becomes the president, it will go for parliament dissolution. But whether the same Litvin will go to it? Why to it it?

If Tymoshenko becomes a president, it will make everything to create the team, so, will hold early parliamentary elections. And then many, especially from a president's team, we in new parliament won't see.

You know, Yushchenko asked me to support him in due time at presidential election. I asked it: "Where you see in system of the power of NDP - and me, and those people who work with me? " He answered: "Let's hold elections, and then we will look... " I then told it: "It not answer. I can't tell people who will live up to fall, and then it will be both there, and here... " Therefore chose such position and I supported Yanukovych. And now those people who supported Yushchenko, actually broke up in half. I ask now them a question: "Well, who was right? " I said to them that won't be to sense, it won't be able to direct: at first it behind the back had late Getman, then Stelmakh, and they helped it to work then in National Bank. And when Yushchenko became a President, it became clear that to work he isn't able.

Well, why? It and the prime minister was, and his Cabinet of Ministers called, by the way, "team of reformers"...

Yes what it is team?. He didn't manage to make anything - the program of the government approved only in March - month, and next year it already dismissed! Besides it came to all ready, the economy worked so any things are not his merit... Then there was an increase in production for 17%! What, it made it? I remember everything... It got all ready: Kuchma thought that he will get it, and Yushchenko got all this! Here and reason of its success and such image of "reformer"!

The main thing that it showed the insolvency at government - here trouble! And people who for it voted and hoped for it, were once again convinced that it is necessary to treat elections of heads of the state very much and very carefully and attentively. They need to be brought up, grown up... Unfortunately, our former personnel policy is simply lost...

It is now obvious that huge chances to become the President at Tymoshenko, and it, it is necessary to tell, many frightens - its authoritarianism, aspiration to the absolute power and other.How you estimate this political figure? How similar fears and the similar attitude towards her are proved?

I would treat it differently. I would note its main quality - it the slogger, it works much. And it person purposeful! It set to herself the purpose - to become the president, and goes to it! And that that is created at the left, on the right... All this, you know, by the principle "the dog barks, and the caravan goes", that is she goes towards the aim, and all...

Let's say for her any personal virtues it is really possible and it is necessary to respect, but what to the country from it? Business not in how the person speaks, - it is possible to be convinced of it on the example of the same Victor Yushchenko whom too very well perceived when he was candidate for president...

You know, after the address of the President to the people on television Friday before last when he accused Tymoshenko of everything, I told at once that it needs to go voluntary to resignation.

Because if you address to the people concerning an economic crisis, it is necessary to offer, first of all, concrete steps which will be implemented already tomorrow! And what he told? I told nothing! Well, all know, what in the country crisis, and what from this? It on the contrary, even more lowered!.

Therefore I also say that it has to leave simply earlier and not disturb. And Tymoshenko let already to presidential election works in the government... Because if her elect the president, the new coalition will create, re-elect the government. As far as Yulia Vladimirovna will influence coalition formation in the Verkhovna Rada? I think that will influence. If it correctly constructs Secretariat work, influence will be essential.

On the other hand, what today powers at the President? He is guarantor Konstitutsii, and has to force to live all under the Constitution - personally, the Secretariat, the Verkhovna Rada, the government, all people because all of us have to be worthy citizens of the country! Because, unfortunately, at us forgot that such the worthy citizen!

If today say that paid a salary to state employees, in the city of Kiev the teacher today didn't get paid! And to them ordered to be silent because will disperse! And about surcharges which wasn't that were silent! In militia paid only official salaries, and extra charges which make the most part of salaries, absolutely aren't present! That is paid actually where - that 50-60% of a salary! It is impossible to mislead people! Therefore Tymoshenko too it is necessary to work much that her elected the president of the country...

You so describe a situation as though it is already come true fact. And if Yanukovych becomes the president?

Similarly!

And again there will be Tymoshenko's peculiar opposition with Yanukovych how now it happens at it to Yushchenko?

Well, Yushchenko any more won't be...

Well, how won't be? It will be such to itself(himself) Deng Xiaoping, and will say that warned... Notice, already now in its performances notes sound that "you still remember me and estimate that I made... "

Yes anybody will remember nobody! The history testifies that it is vain to hope on... Well, Kuchma remember not evil silent word... Though whom from our heads well remembered? Yes anybody actually!

Why I so speak about Yushchenko and his Secretariat? When appointed Rybachuk, I met him and told that the main thing in Secretariat work - control over Constitution observance. The president has to set tasks, and the secretariat - to fulfill them. And at us opposition went! The president took away to himself governors and chairmen of areas, that is part of executive power! Also began! But without solution of nation-wide questions will be nothing! As also Baloga deals absolutely with other issues - now, however, became silent a little bit... But without the normal organization of work of the President of objective information that occurs in the state, he never will receive! And in general, one person in our state will be able to make nothing! Therefore also it is necessary for Yanukovych command to reformat:to form it already now not only on the basis of Party of Regions... It needs to go by association, and with Tymoshenko including...

And who is closer you from them than two?

It is difficult to tell... I in general bad don't tell anything about women... I consider that in government officials it is necessary to take professionally prepared people. And Tymoshenko needs to reform the government which will be professionally engaged in the important directions for the country about what I already spoke...

Well, will try to enter into Gayduk's government with Tigipko, but concerning the economic block will show for certain that nobody will dictate to it whom to dismiss and whom to appoint...

Certainly, it won't give the quota - unless, probably, will concede something for the sake of something there the global. On the other hand, Litvin correctly arrives, understanding that the majority isn't present, and vote attempts for this or that minister провальны. I think, Gayduk already would become long ago vice-the prime minister on energy industry or changed someone from ministers if such opportunity was. But with voices uncertainty, Turchynov after all counts everything: there everything is counted to the last thread and if they go on something, it already hundred percent.

On the other hand, if Tymoshenko doesn't strengthen the economic block of the government, she won't be able to correct state of the economy, and the next two months will show at once problems with pensions and with salaries of budgetary organizations.

And one more question about which we absolutely forgot: if we aren't engaged in energy security of our state, at any deals, whether becomes the president Tymoshenko or Yanukovych, the result will be zero. Speech of the head of public administration of Donetsk region Vladimir Logvinenko confirmed that grants to miners grew by 2,6 times, and coal mining decreased by 20 million tons, and in general coal mining decreased across Ukraine. Same nonsense! And who is responsible for these questions in the government? Yes, there is a minister of the coal industry, but he once solved something? Yes never! Because it depends on the general financing in principle and Cabinet works as a whole.

And the ministries which would bring in today the income in the budget? For example, the Ministry of the coal industry, brings? No, because it subsidized, though has to yield revenue in the budget! Further - the Ministry of Energy:there now problems, there is a production falling and therefore electricity consumption decreases, it will be superfluous soon, and we won't know where to put it. The ministry of transport makes profit? Actually not. Why? Metallurgy fell, the chemical industry fell - there is nothing to transport. The Russian transit freights too slowly decrease. Instead of the railroad will work - our 19 sea trade ports won't work also. The mechanical engineering too endures crisis, so there is no place to put the metal, there is nobody to sell production. And, unfortunately, neither Yulia Vladimirovna, nor Turchynov don't deal with these issues...

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